Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Great photos of the Italian CV Cavour. I was impressed with the space around the Harrier on the lift and it looks like the F-35B would have no difficulty operating from this ship. I really like the lines of Cavour (but then again I have always thought that the Italians make good looking ships ).

It is also good to see progress being made with the Spanish BPE. The two Australian ships of this type look like being operated with helicopters only but the new government indicated in the run up to the election that consideration would be given to operating VSTOL aircraft from them. However, this seems to not even be on the wish list of the Australian Defence Force (ADF) at the present time so I am not holding my breath.

Tas

Tasman said:

... I was impressed with the space around the Harrier on the lift and it looks like the F-35B would have no difficulty operating from this ship...

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Italy being a tier 2 partner in the JSF program, I guess they thought about it when designing the carrier
Those being accompanied by EH-101 helos. I wonder if an Merlin AEW version will come also? I guess an Osprey is too big for that ship.

However, this seems to not even be on the wish list of the ADF...

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Would those F-35Bs be operated by the navy or the airforce, and does perhaps the AF not want Bs because they fear the # of As could be cut?

Scratch said:

Italy being a tier 2 partner in the JSF program, I guess they thought about it when designing the carrier
Those being accompanied by EH-101 helos. I wonder if an Merlin AEW version will come also? I guess an Osprey is too big for that ship.


Would those F-35Bs be operated by the navy or the airforce, and does perhaps the AF not want Bs because they fear the # of As could be cut?

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the Osprey could fit on Cavour as it has fitted on Illustrious i don't think the Itaiens have any interste in it. Yep there is already a E-101 AEW in service

Scratch said:

Would those F-35Bs be operated by the navy or the airforce, and does perhaps the AF not want Bs because they fear the # of As could be cut?

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It is likely that the RAAF would mount strong arguments against the RAN getting back into fixed wing aviation. Basically the air force argues that the ADF is too small to efficiently support a naval air combat force. Whilst I personally disagree with this I am certain that any F-35B's operated from the Australian LHD's would be flown by the air force (or at best a joint RAAF/RAN squadron). As you have suggested the RAAF is likely to resist cuts to the F-35A force. It wants 4 squadrons of these and the acquisition of F-35B's would almost certainly be at the expense of one of these squadrons. The army seems to be happy with the level of close air support that will be offered by the Tiger helicopter and these will be deployed from the LHD's alongside army troop lift helos and naval Seahawks or Seasprites (carried for self defence against submarines or fast attack craft). There is also a concern that the troop lift capability would suffer if even a small number (say 4-6) of F-35B's were to be deployed from the LHD's.

There is the suggestion that a third sealift ship that the navy plans to acquire under the current Defence Capability Plan may also be a 'Canberra' class LHD and if this comes to fruition the ability to deploy F-35B's without an adverse affect on the troop lift capability will improve as one of the LHD's could be specifically tasked with this role.

Tas

On this and other forums I have heard a number of 'land lubbers' try to put forward the view that naval aviation does not require naval pilots and should be just another part of the repertoire of land based aviators. What they don't get is that naval aviators often go on to be ships captains and even admirals, and these are the people who need to have an intimate understanding of aviation at sea in order to make best use of it. In the Falklands war the Task Force was commanded by an ex submariner (Rear Admiral Woodward) who since admitted that he did not understand as much about the Sea Harriers capabilities or air defence in general as he should have. Most carrier captains in the RN (and all in the USN) are ex aviators so they understand how to best deploy the weapon systems deployed aboard ship. So even if the fourth Australian F-35 sqn is RAAF and not RAN it should still include a number of RAN pilots for this reason.

Obi Wan Russell said:

On this and other forums I have heard a number of 'land lubbers' try to put forward the view that naval aviation does not require naval pilots and should be just another part of the repertoire of land based aviators. What they don't get is that naval aviators often go on to be ships captains and even admirals, and these are the people who need to have an intimate understanding of aviation at sea in order to make best use of it. In the Falklands war the Task Force was commanded by an ex submariner (Rear Admiral Woodward) who since admitted that he did not understand as much about the Sea Harriers capabilities or air defence in general as he should have. Most carrier captains in the RN (and all in the USN) are ex aviators so they understand how to best deploy the weapon systems deployed aboard ship. So even if the fourth Australian F-35 sqn is RAAF and not RAN it should still include a number of RAN pilots for this reason.

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Merry Christmas Obi Wan ..and very well stated.

I wish the USN would follow this reasoning in it's assignments of task force commanders. There use to be a time some years ago when all USN CV task force commandes were all Naval avatiors. This is no longer true. Cv task force commanders are now open to line(surface warfare) officers also. Why? So line officers have the same oppurtinty in advancement and assignment.

Fortunatley the USN has installed in such commands Naval avatior as the Chief of staff to "assist" the task force commander with his avation assets.

Excellent points Obi Wan and Popeye. I agree totally with Obi Wan re the need for naval pilots in any F-35 squadron that 'may' eventually be assigned to the fleet, regardless of which service operates these aircraft.

Given the importance of naval aviation in the USN order of battle it seems imperative that experienced aviators should either command or at least hold very senior positions in a task force organisation. Ensuring that naval aviation is represented at a high level in the command staff in navies like the RN also seems to me to be common sense.

Alas, in the RAN, the passage of twenty five years since the decommissioning of its last carrier, HMAS Melbourne, has resulted in a lack of command personnel with a 'feel' for fixed wing aviation and the benefits it can provide the fleet. The present leadership in the RAN has come through a small ship navy. Hopefully the tremendous capability offered by the new LHD's will eventually be realised but I fear it may take a generation of sailors to serve in these ships before that happens.

Merry Christmas.

Tas

Now that's an interesting point I think. 25 years after the last CV was decomissioned, I guess the RAN has no fixed wing naval aviatiors (at least in the jet role).
So in the beginning they'd have to take AF personal that has to (re)learn the naval specifics again, wich may again take a complete career.
Is there a special SQ in the RAAF that currently has the air-bases ASuW role?

Scratch said:

Is there a special SQ in the RAAF that currently has the air-bases ASuW role?

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No squadron has this as a specific role but it is an important part of the role of 1 Squadron which operates the F-111C. The three FA-18 squadrons (3, 75 and 77) exercise with the fleet on an occasional basis. The two Hawk 127 lead in fighter squadrons (76 and 79) are each tasked with providing aircraft for fleet support in addition to their advanced training roles. Obviously, the two AP-3C Orion squadrons have an important ASuW role.

Tas

Tasman..I think you feel the AUS Military as a whole is to small. Am I correct??

If you do let me ask you this..If you could Command the RAN how would you as it's commander configure it?..IF you had the proper funding! Specfically with aircraft carriers, LHDs etc..Thanks!!