Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Re: European Carrier operations.

tomcat21 said:

I am curious. It has been stated that the French and British Navies are considering joint conventional carrier air wing operations, or shared ships. Is that going to happen? I wonder how the British fliers would feel if they had to take orders from the French or if they would feel their own independence to defend the UK and the fleet is gone?

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The British already have very little independence. They lease their Trident missiles from the US. And as there is no threat against any British territory except, perhaps, sometime, the Malvinas, they are not defending the UK but are mostly interfering in the internal affairs of other countries. They should be able to make arrangements with Paris about that.
On the other hand the current trouble in the Euro zone might well cause so much bad blood that this possibility, about which they have already been talking some twenty years or so, will again lead to nothing.

The British Don't "Lease" Any thing they own those missiles via a cooperative pool with the US.
As for Joint operations British Forces Already operate in close cooperation even mixed units though NATO command.

Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

hello


he new UK CVF Royal Navy aircraft carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, are expected to enter service in 2016 and 2018.

CVF will displace 65,000t, a size between the USA's 100,000t Nimitz Class and the French 43,000t Charles de Gaulle Class aircraft carriers, and three times larger than the 20,000t UK Invincible class carriers.

Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

jyotisharma said:

hello


he new UK CVF Royal Navy aircraft carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, are expected to enter service in 2016 and 2018.

CVF will displace 65,000t, a size between the USA's 100,000t Nimitz Class and the French 43,000t Charles de Gaulle Class aircraft carriers, and three times larger than the 20,000t UK Invincible class carriers.

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Queen Elizabeth class full load displacement will be 74,000 tons.

Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

sealordlawrence said:

Queen Elizabeth class full load displacement will be 74,000 tons.

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Whats the point of building both ships if they are only going to operate 12 planes and a few AEW/SAR/ASW helicopters? They're designed for 50, something the anti military memebers of parliament will never allow because of "financial constraints". They might as well build another Invincible like carrier or buy a Juan Carlos type ship from Spain.

Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

tomcat21 said:

Whats the point of building both ships if they are only going to operate 12 planes and a few AEW/SAR/ASW helicopters? They're designed for 50, something the anti military memebers of parliament will never allow because of "financial constraints". They might as well build another Invincible like carrier or buy a Juan Carlos type ship from Spain.

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You're making a lot of assumptions there, such as 'only 12' fighters. The Coalition came to power determined to do without carriers, said there would be no other military operations but the Stan and made many other pronouncements. They have a great track record... of being wrong, and are well on course to be voted out in 2015. The carriers won't enter service until near the end of the next Parliament, so the big decisions will be made by that government not this one. Have a read of previous posts about the merits of building the biggest carrier you can versus the smallest and most inefficient you can. These ships will serve for fifty years, things will change a great deal in that time and the financial problems of 2011 will be a distant memory during the lifetimes of the QEC. As to building our carriers abroad, why? We have the tools and the talent, and the money to build the ships should be reinvested in British Industry and the British Economy, not used to subsidise overseas workers. The Juan Carlos is an amphibious transport, not a carrier, and even in the carrier role her flight deck is very inefficiently designed (too small for a ship of that displacement), precluding deck parking of many aircraft. Britain is the second most prolific and successful builder of carriers historically, and the number one exporter of the type. Why would we want to buy inferior products from countries who have barely dipped their toes in the water?

Obi Wan, If you had the authority how many CBGs should the UK maintain? Let's fantasize and say money is no object..nor are the politicians..

Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

Obi Wan Russell said:

They have a great track record... of being wrong, and are well on course to be voted out in 2015. The carriers won't enter service until near the end of the next Parliament, so the big decisions will be made by that government not this one.

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There's no way of addressing this without raising politics - eep!

I wouldn't be so sure about the next election. Ed Milliband is a loser, and I wouldn't be surprised if in 2015 the public doesn't want to take a punt on him and Labour. Even if he did win a majority, there's no guarantee he'd show any balls over foreign policy and decide we needed two active aircraft carriers. His election manifesto will be "the cuts were wrong - we need to spend, spend, spend". But you can stake your house that very little, if anything, will go on the military. That extra spending will have to come from somewhere, so the temptation may be to ignore defence as the previous Labour governments more or less did for 13 years.

It's worth remembering that there are many Conservatives who are pro defence. So in 2015, when money's not so tight, there may well be back-peddling on what to do with the carriers.

Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

Mr T said:

There's no way of addressing this without raising politics - eep!

I wouldn't be so sure about the next election. Ed Milliband is a loser, and I wouldn't be surprised if in 2015 the public doesn't want to take a punt on him and Labour. Even if he did win a majority, there's no guarantee he'd show any balls over foreign policy and decide we needed two active aircraft carriers. His election manifesto will be "the cuts were wrong - we need to spend, spend, spend". But you can stake your house that very little, if anything, will go on the military. That extra spending will have to come from somewhere, so the temptation may be to ignore defence as the previous Labour governments more or less did for 13 years.

It's worth remembering that there are many Conservatives who are pro defence. So in 2015, when money's not so tight, there may well be back-peddling on what to do with the carriers.

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I'll start off by saying I am politically nuetral, inasmuch as I dislike them all! The current mob are doing everything they can to get booted out just like the last lot did. Cameron fought an election against the most unpopular Prime minister in the post war period... and failed to secure a majority. Since then his popularity with the electorate has been shaky at best. Next time against Ed Milliband it may well be a close run thing. If it is David Milliband he faces then that's another matter... The extra spending when it comes post 2015 will be about securing British jobs and hence the British economy, which is the real underlying reason the CVF project wasn't cancelled (added to the cancellation costs). This bunch of Tories are easy to predict because they are repeating all the mistakes of the first Thatcher Government of 79-83 almost word for word. What saved Thatcher was the Falklands, but the Lybia campaign doesn't even begin to compare, so Cameron hasn't got his 'Great Victory' under his belt yet and is unlikley to secure it either given the current defence posture. Chancellor Osbourne and his 'No plan B' posture is already in trouble because 'Plan A' isn't working, it's choking the economy and preventing recovery. The proposed constituency boundary changes will mean he will lose his seat soon, and Cameron may take the opportunity (slim chance I know) to elbow him out and put someone more capable in the job. Then again he'll probably just take over another safe seat pushing a colleague out of the way and continue to screw the economy. The deficit cannot be reduced by cuts alone, there has to be growth, something Osbourne has singly failed to appreciate. Growth means investment and tax breaks (including VAT, which Osbourne raised!) to increase tax revenues. Bad management has always been the British disease (strikes are just a symptom), and the current crop have a serious infection. Wether or not the next mob fare better only time will tell.

bd popeye said:

Obi Wan, If you had the authority how many CBGs should the UK maintain? Let's fantasize and say money is no object..nor are the politicians..

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Based on what CAN be afforded, I would like a Royal Navy based on three CVFs, to guarantee one forward deployed at all times (two ships means one available to deploy if needed, a lower level of response), supported by the originally planned twelve T45 DDGs and 16 Frigates (T23, T22s and later T26s). This would provide enough escorts for the Amphibious Ready Group (or whatever they are calling it this week) as well as the Carrier group. and additionally I would produce a class of enlarged River class long range Patrol Frigates to cover the worldwide commitments (anti Piracy patrols, anti drug running patrols, FI patrol) where a deployment by a larger Frigate or Destroyer is overkill.

Of course if money is no object, then I'd try to return to 1960s levels:
5 CVF
2 LPH (enlarged Ocean class)
12 T45 DDG
30 T23/22B3/T26 FFG
12 T27 Patrol Frigate
2 LPD (Albion class)
5 LSD (Bay class)
up to 20 MCMVs
7 FAA operated F-35C Lightning sqns (6 frontline, 800, 801, 809, 890, 892, 893 and one OCU, 899) normally two 12 aircraft sqns asssigned to each carrier, but with the flexibility to deploy a third to each (drawn from the air group of third ship which would normally be in refit in the cycle), or a single sqn embarked when on other duties eg ASW patrol, mega LPH, disaster relief (carriers are just so flexible and useful aren't they?)
Up to 50 Merlin HM2 for ASW (810, 814, 820, 824, 826, 829)
40+ Lynx Wildcat for smaller ship deployments as required (815, 819, 847)
45 Merlin HC4 for the CHF (845, 846, 848)
849NAS operating five flights of three Hawkeye AEW1 (E-2D) so circa 18 airframes in total (three attrition/training airframes).
12 Astute class SSNs
4 Vanguard class/successor class SSBNs

Well you did say money no object!