Air Superiority over Chinese coastal waters
- Thread starter Cheng
- Start date
solarz
Brigadier
Going off-topic for a bit here, I think Zhu Geliang's decisions to attack Shu were major mistakes. The biggest difficulty he experienced in his campaigns were keeping up logistics over the mountainous regions of Shu. What should have been his greatest defense became the cause of his campaign's defeats. In the end, he exhausted the resources of his kingdom and weakened it to the point that it was conquered after his death.
I think this shows that there is a time for defense and a time for attack. The key to victory is to choose the right course of action at the right time.
vesicles
Colonel
I don't think so. Although Shu was exhausted by Zhuge Liang's expeditions, Wei was also exhausted by all the attacks. Wei was busy preparing to defend itself against possible attacks by Zhuge Liang and never even thought about anything else, such as attacking others. That actually allowed Shu to survive and thrive. Not only that, although none of the expedition was successful in terms of gaining land, Zhuge Liand and Shu were able to bring back with them much of the resources that used to belong to Wei, such as food and weapons. With the much needed resources, Shu thrived. Just imagine what would happen if Zhuge liang did not launch those attacks. Wei would have attacked them and they would have to be the one defending. This means Shu would lose land, people, and resources, to Wei. And since the battles would have been fought on Shu's lands, they would not have the opportunity to continue their growth since no one would want to farm on or near a battle field. With people gone and land wasted, Shu's growth would be stalled. Yet, by bringing the fight to Wei, it was the kingdom of Wei that faced such problems, not Shu. People of Shu were given the opportunity to continue farming on their own land and Shu thrived because of that. During Zhuge Liang's tenure, Shu was never attacked and Shu's growth was never affected. People of Shu lived in relative peace.
And what happened when the attack stopped? Wei, under Sima Zhao began to attack Shu. And it took only a few years for Shu's defense to break down and Shu completely destroyed. How did it happen? Zhuge Liang laid out a well-planned defensive strategy at the time of his death. Although all the obvious places had been well-defended by Zhuge Liang's student, Jiang Wei, one small spot was ignored. This would be the pass of Yin Ping. It sits in a place that was almost impossible to attack, thus the defense was lacking. Yet, it was exactly this little pass that became the hole that the army of Wei finally punched through. Once this pass fell, the entire defense broke down and those Shu armies that were initially at strong defensive positions now became surrounded and had to face enemy in front of them AND behind them. And this is exactly what I have been talking about. And this is exactly what that Chinese phrase, 久守必失, means. All the attackers need to do to find that one weak spot and punch a hole. No matter how well you defend at other 99.9999% of places, you will lose. This never happened when Zhuge Liang was in charge and was leading the attack on the Wei. Wei was too busy defending and never had a chance to even contemplate the possibility of attacking others.
Of course, the situation that China faces today is a lot different than the 3-kingdom time. At that time, every warlord wanted to unite China and to become a ultimate emperor of ALL China. So a final showdown was inevitable. So all the decisions were made based on that premise. Today's China, on the other hand, does not have such problem. China does not need to unite with anyone and no one absolutely needs to unite with China. All the nations can and should co-exist in perfect harmony. So China does not have to attack anyone. However, possession of the full capability to attack is the key. It is a perfect form of deterrence. And once a highly unlikely war starts, China has the option to bring the fight to them, which is a whole lot better than fighting a war on Chinese soil. Again, this was the thinking by Mao when he decided to go to NK. And his decision was indeed a correct one.
The air defense zone is not a no fly zone so its no big deal.
thunderchief
Senior Member
vesicles
Colonel
Please check out my last post. Zhuge liang's decision was based on the premise that a war between Shu and Wei was inevitable. This was true at the time in that situation because all the warlords wanted to unite China and become the ultimate emperor. The only way any of them could do would be to destroy others. thus, co-existence between them was impossible. That was the situation Zhuge Liang faced at the time. And if he did not attack, he knew that Wei would attack them. And when that happens, they would have to fight on their soil. a bad thing to do.
Indeed, that was the plan by Sima Yi, the supreme military commander of Wei. When Chao Pi (the second king of Wei) died and his son took the throne, Sima Yi immediately volunteered to be stationed at the border between Shu and Wei. His intention was loud and clear. He was planning to attack Shu. Zhuge Liang had no choice but to attack first because he did not want to fight a war on Shu soil. If his expedition did not happen, Sima Yi would have led Wei's army to attack Shu and Shu would be under constant attacks. Given Shu's weak position at the time (its first king just lost a major war with another warlord and lost >750,000 troops), Shu was in no position to defend itself. Like I said before, it would be much easier to attack than to defend. You can focus your limited resources to attack certain targets. Since attacking is unpredictable, defending is so much harder to do. Zhuge Liang knew that and that was the decision he had to make.
It was not his pride that drove him to constantly attack Wei. He had no choice. If he stopped, Sima Yi would have attacked him. That was happened immediately after Shu lost the major battle of Yiling against the kingdom of Wu, where they lost close to 750,000 troops. Wei mounted a surprise major attack when Wei attacked Shu from 5 different directions. the same also happened when Zhuge was busy in the south trying to put down a rebellion. Sima Yi saw an opportunity and immediately stationed close to 300,000 troops close to Shu-Wei border and intended to attack. Zhuge Liang was able to stop it before Sima Yi was able mount any offense. The same thing happened again after the third expedition (I think, not entire sure of the timing). The supreme commander of Wei, Chao Zhi, volunteered to lead an expedition to attack Shu when he thought Zhuge Liang was busy cleaning up his political enemies in Chengdu. As you can see, Zhuge Liang was absolutely correct that a conflict between Wei and Shu was inevitable. If Shu did not attack Wei, Wei would have attacked them. And Wei has attacked Shu in multiple occasions when Wei thought Shu was defenseless. If that is the case, better bring the fight to them. As I mentioned in my last post, then Shu stopped attacking, Wei immediately mounted offense. Exactly as Zhuge Liang foresaw.
Last edited:
Can all members please refrain from posting about the ADIZ in this or any other thread for the time being. An earlier thread opened on the subject has had to be closed as it became far too silly.
I hope we will be able to have a thread on this subject, but it and its conduct, need to be agreed with the moderator team, so please be patient and avoid the temptation to be off topic.
I hope we will be able to have a thread on this subject, but it and its conduct, need to be agreed with the moderator team, so please be patient and avoid the temptation to be off topic.
In actual fact... one of the reason for the Chinese to develop systems like the ballistic missiles and the such was not just to act as a deterrence against enemy... in my opinion it was also a trump card to be able to let the Chinese push their power outside and hit a target that they normally could not with conventional warfare.
To let the war be carried in Chinese airspace and land would be a battle lost even if the Chinese managed to ultimately pushes the enemy out of their land... because it would be your land that is destroyed and your people (both soldiers and civilians) that will be killed while the enemy only loses some of their soldiers. True... they will bleed and wasted some money, but their industrial might, civilian and resources are intact.
The idea of pure defenses for whatever reasons (be it in the grand wording of asymetrical warfare or attrition warfare, etc) are old and not useful in today context... especially when the Chinese already process enough wealth, equipment and strength to bring the war to the enemy.
In actual fact... I think Chinese leaders had this type of mindsets all the while... they didn't fancy war on their own land too... WWII was different when the Chinese proposed using their landmass in exchange for time when fighting the Japanese. That is mainly because the Chinese lack of any meaningful projection capability and of course could not bring the war to the Japanese.
However if you took a step back... Han dynasty. The Chinese launches attack on the Xiong Nu... and that is one classic example of the Chinese pushing the battle away from their own homeland and it is effective. Moving forward, Korean War, Sino-Vietnamese War, Sino-India War, etc... all this showed that the Chinese would bring the war to their opponent rather than letting their opponent fought in their own land.
And looking at smaller battles within China itself... the communists launches attack against the nationalists... instead of going into pure defense... they attack... and may I remind you, at one time... the communists are not as strong (in number and equipment) as the nationalists... and yet they launches attacks.
The above mentioned examples actually showed that the Chinese had the strategy of launching attack in a form of defense against opponents whether these opponents are stronger or weaker... so to waste precious resources in pure defense and thinking that sacrificing precious manpower is truly a mentality that is wayyyyy out of context of today and even yesterday warfare.... and all these are not inclusive of the new and much stronger capability of the Chinese.
To let the war be carried in Chinese airspace and land would be a battle lost even if the Chinese managed to ultimately pushes the enemy out of their land... because it would be your land that is destroyed and your people (both soldiers and civilians) that will be killed while the enemy only loses some of their soldiers. True... they will bleed and wasted some money, but their industrial might, civilian and resources are intact.
The idea of pure defenses for whatever reasons (be it in the grand wording of asymetrical warfare or attrition warfare, etc) are old and not useful in today context... especially when the Chinese already process enough wealth, equipment and strength to bring the war to the enemy.
In actual fact... I think Chinese leaders had this type of mindsets all the while... they didn't fancy war on their own land too... WWII was different when the Chinese proposed using their landmass in exchange for time when fighting the Japanese. That is mainly because the Chinese lack of any meaningful projection capability and of course could not bring the war to the Japanese.
However if you took a step back... Han dynasty. The Chinese launches attack on the Xiong Nu... and that is one classic example of the Chinese pushing the battle away from their own homeland and it is effective. Moving forward, Korean War, Sino-Vietnamese War, Sino-India War, etc... all this showed that the Chinese would bring the war to their opponent rather than letting their opponent fought in their own land.
And looking at smaller battles within China itself... the communists launches attack against the nationalists... instead of going into pure defense... they attack... and may I remind you, at one time... the communists are not as strong (in number and equipment) as the nationalists... and yet they launches attacks.
The above mentioned examples actually showed that the Chinese had the strategy of launching attack in a form of defense against opponents whether these opponents are stronger or weaker... so to waste precious resources in pure defense and thinking that sacrificing precious manpower is truly a mentality that is wayyyyy out of context of today and even yesterday warfare.... and all these are not inclusive of the new and much stronger capability of the Chinese.