Aerodynamics thread

Quickie

Colonel
Re: Chinese Engine Development

There is more to the logic that increasing the length will increase the inertia since one have to take into account the fact that this would also increase the length of the moment arm of the canards i.e. making the pitching effort more effective. As to how to reconcile this seemingly contradiction, using Latenlazy's words, this may be slightly beyond high school physics. ;)
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: Chinese Engine Development

Partially you are right, but canards on fighter like this are used more for control (J-20 is inherently unstable ) then for rapid change of direction (to increase ITR) . Of course, J-20 could deflect its canards almost to 90 degrees, but that would result in rapid loss of speed. Compared to other fighters of 5. and 4.5 gen, J-20 has relatively high wing loading, and I doubt it is configured for low speed turning combat. Be advised that generating vortex lift increases lift but actually also increase drag .
I checked the wing area a while ago. It's not as small as people suggest (around the realm of 80-90 m^2). We of course don't know weight so suggesting that the J-20 must have high wing loading is a bit facetious. Also all the other existing delta canards seem to perform excellent nose pointing and ITR with high wing loading, so the evidence at least contradicts the notion that highly loaded delta canards can't be agile. As I suggested of course agility is not maneuverability, so things may play out differently in the STR front, but we just don't actually know where that's all at without detailed numbers on design performance.

Vortex lift and canard deflections do cause drag of course, but so do tail deflections. Furthermore nowadays every modern fighter employs vortex lift. All reasons why I mentioned L/D ratios and lift coefficients. My point was we can't begin to eyeball with any measure of accuracy what those figures are for any plane that's comparably designed for similar mission roles simply because it's not the fact that vortex lift or surface reflections causes drag but specifically how much drag, versus things like how much lift, and conditioned on the flight regime, all of which aren't determined simply because something has x feature.

I'm not suggesting that the J-20 will be optimized for low speed turning, or even that that's desirable. No design dominates every flight regime, and each design will optimize its tactics for its particular strengths. That said, what I am saying is that we can't judge just by looking (afterall we do know the vortex generators on the J-20 are meant to serve some purpose).
There is more to the logic that increasing the length will increase the inertia since one have to take into account the fact that this would also increase the length of the moment arm of the canards i.e. making the pitching effort more effective. As to how to reconcile this seemingly contradiction, using Latenlazy's words, this may be slightly beyond high school physics. ;)

Of course that moment arm also depends on where the force is applied and how much! In flight dynamics that's no small complication since that will change based on flight regime!
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Re: Chinese Engine Development

Yeah, people seem to be fixated on the length of the J-20. The measurement the J-20 from actual satellite photos with both J-20 and Flankers side-by-side shows that the J-20 is obviously shorter than several Flanker variants. I guess the PLA got tired of the length myth and decided to put the J-20 side-by-side with other fighters, knowing that someone will see the satellite images and pick up the hint...

I think Deino, Vesicles, that honestly what people are concerned with is that the J-20 has a little different planform than the average fighter, such as J-15, F-15, F-16, J-10, Eurofighter, or Rafael, PAK-FA, or even Mig-29, and it doesn't necessarily "look" supermaneuverable, and the fuselage has a rather "beefy" look to it. The canard are distant coupled to the main wing, which is an aft delta, and it would appear the center of lift, and the center of gravity are a little farther aft than would appear "optimal". I believe the J-20 will be in the same lump with most of the others, but likely a little slower in pitch transitions than say the Eurofighter, but who knows.

If I thought people were trolling, I would call them on it, but I know what they are talking about, because that was also my first impression on looking at the J-20, even though I have been "educated" I still have a latent "concern". I think the J-20 is very innovative, has relaxed stability that will likely surprise some, but there is so little actual "hard info", that it does cause speculation that is all over the board... brat
 

Inst

Captain
Re: Chinese Engine Development

On the wing-loading, you are almost definitely wrong, however. I've done my own measurements against the J-20's wing area, using a quadrilateral region including body lift, and the figures vary from 72m^2 to 78m^2, depending on what your guess of the wing area is. This is about 10% less than that of the Raptor, however, and for a larger airframe, so the J-20 can probably be expected to have relatively poor sustained turn rate compared to the Raptor and PAK-FA.

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With regards to IR, APG-77v1 would be able to track a -30 dBsm target at around 40km, but APG-81 on the F-35 would only be able to do so around 30km. Compare to PIRATE IRST, which can detect and track subsonic 4th gen fighters at 50km. In 5th gen combat IR tracking often occurs before radar tracking.

And with regards to decoy stuff being fanciful; that's a bit un-Chinese, don't you think? If you consider the entire Chinese way of warfare it's based on misdirection and the use of minimal force. The West, especially the United States, might be attracted and addicted to the use of overwhelming force as its habitual doctrine, but decoys, attacking the opponent's decision process, and so on is fundamentally very Chinese.

Remember in Korea, to prepare for the 3rd Phase Offensive, the PAP spent a considerable amount of time to successfully fool the UN forces that the PAP was going to attack in the East when the attack actually came in the West.

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As far as imitating F-15s, the USAF is actually doing that, in a sense, with their F-15+F-22 combo tactics. The F-15 is the exposed radar emitter for F-22s, having greater radar range than the F-22s with their latest AESA upgrades. That functions as bait for enemy fighters; the point is that they don't realize that the F-15 is escorted by stealthier allies and that if they engage the F-15, they'll get ambushed and destroyed by F-22s.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: Chinese Engine Development

On the wing-loading, you are almost definitely wrong, however. I've done my own measurements against the J-20's wing area, using a quadrilateral region including body lift, and the figures vary from 72m^2 to 78m^2, depending on what your guess of the wing area is. This is about 10% less than that of the Raptor, however, and for a larger airframe, so the J-20 can probably be expected to have relatively poor sustained turn rate compared to the Raptor and PAK-FA.
For what it's worth I did my measurements with a printout of a blown up satellite picture, a ruler, and protractor. There's going to be some measurement errors if course, but I found 79 m^2 to be a very low bound. I suspect one of the reasons we have discrepancies is because the satellite picture indicates a wingspan of 13.5+ meters for a length of around 20.5 meters. I trust this measurement of wingspan more than others because when I started I intended on cross referencing length, height, and wingspan dimensions with pictures from front, side, and bottom angles, and got discrepancies of the ratios of the major dimensions not only between different angles but even between different pictures of the same angle. I suspect this was caused by differences of geometric distortion and perspective of each picture. For example, pictures from the front suggested a wingspan of 12.5-13 meters, I suspect due to perspective, while pictures from the bottom suggested 14-15 meters, probably due to a pitch angle making the plane's length shorter relative to wingspan. I don't even trust paralay's estimates (which I believe are about 13.2 meters) over my own, in part because paralay did his estimates before we had an available satellite pic.

I also wouldn't be entirely certain that the J-20 must be a larger air frame than the Raptor. It could be less voluminous, or less dense. We simply don't know. For example, the J-20 has thinner wings than the F-22, which could have an effect on its mass. Then there's the assertion that has been made about how 3D printing will allow for much lighter structural weight than what forging and casting would allow.

Nor is a larger size necessarily indicative of poorer STR. The YF-23 was said to have had better STR than the YF-22, but it was a larger plane. This goes back to the importance of lift coefficient and L/D ratio of the design, which supersedes wing loading in determining performance. Then of course, as been mentioned, STR in which flight envelope? It's entirely possible for the J-20 to have superior STR at some flight envelopes and inferior STR in others.

With regards to IR, APG-77v1 would be able to track a -30 dBsm target at around 40km, but APG-81 on the F-35 would only be able to do so around 30km. Compare to PIRATE IRST, which can detect and track subsonic 4th gen fighters at 50km. In 5th gen combat IR tracking often occurs before radar tracking.
At 50 km you're technically entering WVR. For two aircraft merging at supersonic speeds that's only about a minute or two before intercept. And tracking doesn't guarantee lock.

And with regards to decoy stuff being fanciful; that's a bit un-Chinese, don't you think? If you consider the entire Chinese way of warfare it's based on misdirection and the use of minimal force. The West, especially the United States, might be attracted and addicted to the use of overwhelming force as its habitual doctrine, but decoys, attacking the opponent's decision process, and so on is fundamentally very Chinese.

Remember in Korea, to prepare for the 3rd Phase Offensive, the PAP spent a considerable amount of time to successfully fool the UN forces that the PAP was going to attack in the East when the attack actually came in the West.

Sure, but the scenario you're suggesting simply doesn't make any sense because pretending to be a less capable target in this case doesn't really achieve anything. For the J-20 in that scenario, pretending to be the less capable version actually MAKES it less capable because it will be coming into combat with lower potential energy. For example, if the opponent were the USAF (and the USAF is really the only adversary where this is really a concern), the USAF isn't throwing anything less than a team of F-35s or an F-22 or two no matter if the J-20 is using AL-31s or WS-15s, and they're not going to sandbag and come in with less PE just because the J-20 might be using Al-31s.

As far as imitating F-15s, the USAF is actually doing that, in a sense, with their F-15+F-22 combo tactics. The F-15 is the exposed radar emitter for F-22s, having greater radar range than the F-22s with their latest AESA upgrades. That functions as bait for enemy fighters; the point is that they don't realize that the F-15 is escorted by stealthier allies and that if they engage the F-15, they'll get ambushed and destroyed by F-22s.

As someone else said earlier, the decoy tactic itself is sound, but it makes little sense to build that tactic into your book of tricks and keep underpowered J-20s around, when you can employ similar decoy tactics with less valuable air assets like J-10s and J-11s and just upgrade those J-20s once better engines are available.
 
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thunderchief

Senior Member
Re: Chinese Engine Development

About wing loading - dimensions are probably wrong, but I believe proportions are right. As you can see, J-20 has proportionally smallest wings. Don't get distracted by canards, I believe they do not generate lift, they are used just as control surfaces.

My guess is that when PLAAF decides to get 5th gen dogfighter, they will go for something like J-31.


j-20-t-50-su-50-f-22-f-35-kf-x-atd-x-shinshin.jpg
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: Chinese Engine Development

About wing loading - dimensions are probably wrong, but I believe proportions are right. As you can see, J-20 has proportionally smallest wings. Don't get distracted by canards, I believe they do not generate lift, they are used just as control surfaces.

My guess is that when PLAAF decides to get 5th gen dogfighter, they will go for something like J-31.


j-20-t-50-su-50-f-22-f-35-kf-x-atd-x-shinshin.jpg

I believe the proportions are wrong actually, based on satellite pics and pictures of the plane from the bottom perspective. Most early renditions of J-20 (and this drawing was very early) seem to make it longer and narrower than it actually is. They also seem to get the length of the forebody relative to the length of the section that is wing wrong. It's why I went directly to pictures when trying to find wing area, precisely because I frequently saw people use renditions like the one above to figure out the dimensions of the plane without first checking to see how accurate those renditions were.

It would also be strange to suggest that the J-31 would be the PLAAF's choice for a dogfighter, since the J-31's design is derivative of the design that lost in the J-XX competition that spawned the J-20.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: Chinese Engine Development

... Do canards not generate lift? Eh? :confused:
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Re: Chinese Engine Development

I believe the proportions are wrong actually, based on satellite pics and pictures of the plane from the bottom perspective. Most early renditions of J-20 (and this drawing was very early) seem to make it longer and narrower than it actually is. They also seem to get the length of the forebody relative to the length of the section that is wing wrong. It's why I went directly to pictures when trying to find wing area, precisely because I frequently saw people use renditions like the one above to figure out the dimensions of the plane without first checking to see how accurate those renditions were.

How about this from wiki :

800px-Chengdu_J-20.svg.png


It would also be strange to suggest that the J-31 would be the PLAAF's choice for a dogfighter, since the J-31's design is derivative of the design that lost in the J-XX competition that spawned the J-20.

I believe PLAAF didn't want dogfighter for its first 5th gen fighter. Considering China lags behind other powers in engine development , that dogfighter would be underpowered and that is a great disadvantage in close combat. It is better to field interceptor/strike fighter for now , until engine development picks up.
 
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