Aerodynamics thread

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Yes, when thrust deflects down, the nose will go down.

.

Let us see how much your fantasy is selctive, you obviously took your pictures from NASA but you forgot conviniently to quote the source


I will do it for you to show you how much you are lying.

A torque is also a vector quantity and produces a rotation in the same way that a force produces a translation. Namely, an object at rest, or rotating at a constant angular velocity, will continue to do so until it is subject to an external torque. A torque produces a change in angular velocity which is called an angular acceleration


Source

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Obviously you do not mention that

angular velocity means turn rate, so obviously you do not mention that, that vector is increasing the turn rate.

but i wil refresh you the memory


Fig. 3.- Increased Sustained Turn Rate with TVNs

source

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now let us see another aspect

Vector quantities have two characteristics, a magnitude and a direction. Scalar quantities have only a magnitude. When comparing two vector quantities of the same type, you have to compare both the magnitude and the direction

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But let me refresh you more the memory

Dealing with momentum is more difficult than dealing with mass and energy because momentum is a vector quantity having both a magnitude and a direction

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now let us see what is indeed torque


Torque is defined as

= r x F = r F sin().

In other words, torque is the cross product between the distance vector (the distance from the pivot point to the point where force is applied) and the force vector, 'a' being the angle between r and F.

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[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Let us see how much your fantasy is selctive, you obviously took your pictures from NASA but you forgot conviniently to quote the source


I will do it for you to show you how much you are lying.

A torque is also a vector quantity and produces a rotation in the same way that a force produces a translation. Namely, an object at rest, or rotating at a constant angular velocity, will continue to do so until it is subject to an external torque. A torque produces a change in angular velocity which is called an angular acceleration


Source

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Obviously you do not mention that

angular velocity means turn rate, so obviously you do not mention that, that vector is increasing the turn rate.

Too much fantasy. You are unable to prove me wrong and that is why you selected one single word and took the entire web page out of context. That is a great fallacy known as

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. You forgot to mention how the

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explains torque being about the center-of-gravity of an object. In other words, change in angular velocity refers to the change in pitch rate. This has nothing to do with turn rate since the center of turn is not the same as center-of-gravity. Allow me to expose the lies that you are making with a quote from the

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:

The product of the force and the perpendicular distance to the center of gravity for an unconfined object, or to the pivot for a confined object, is^M called the torque or the moment.

So, the person who is quoting selectively is you. The one who is inventing lies to float his fantasy also happens to be you. You employ fallacies in your arguments, so you incorrectly assumed others to employ the same tactic which led to your accusation. However, your empty accusation only betrays your own conduct and serves as a great example of

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. LMAO!

but i wil refresh you the memory


Fig. 3.- Increased Sustained Turn Rate with TVNs

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now let us see another aspect

That document is a sales brochure and does not prove your claim. Meanwhile, let me refresh your memory with

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:

At these speeds, TVC-equipped aircraft (lower one in animation) actually turns at same rate as non-TVC aircraft; however, TVC increases angle between aircraft and air flow around it (Angle of Attack, abbreviated AoA), resulting in increase in drag for no decrease in diameter of turn (that is, maneuverability), resulting in increased energy loss during maneuvers, leaving aircraft more and more vulnerable to missiles and gunfire as fight drags on. In short, aircraft does not fly in direction its nose is pointing at.

Vector quantities have two characteristics, a magnitude and a direction. Scalar quantities have only a magnitude. When comparing two vector quantities of the same type, you have to compare both the magnitude and the direction

source

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But let me refresh you more the memory

Dealing with momentum is more difficult than dealing with mass and energy because momentum is a vector quantity having both a magnitude and a direction

source

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Thrust vectoring generates moment and not force. Moment concerns with rotational motion, which has nothing to do with linear momentum on the website. The fact remains that you are still unable to prove thrust vectoring generates aerodynamics lift.

now let us see what is indeed torque


Torque is defined as

= r x F = r F sin().

In other words, torque is the cross product between the distance vector (the distance from the pivot point to the point where force is applied) and the force vector, 'a' being the angle between r and F.

source

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The position of a nozzle with respect to the center of gravity is r. The thrust is F. Hence, thrust vectoring only produces moment about the aircraft's center-of-gravity that causes change in pitch rate. No vertical force known as aerodynamics lift is generated. The equation above proves what I am saying regarding moment as correct.

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Look you do not pick on me, you simply show how much you want to scape from reality

Fig. 3.- Increased Sustained Turn Rate with TVNs
the source proves how much you deny things even having evidence by studies by NATO and ITP

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So much lies. The document was not a study, but a sales brochure authored by ITP presented at a conference held by NATO. The list of authors are listed at the beginning of the document and NATO was not an author. No one believed the claims in the paper, since no one brought the TVN. Meanwhile,

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proves how much you deny things even when it is explicitly stated that aircraft with TVC turns at the same rate as non-TVC aircraft.

At these speeds, TVC-equipped aircraft (lower one in animation) actually turns at same rate as non-TVC aircraft; however, TVC increases angle between aircraft and air flow around it (Angle of Attack, abbreviated AoA), resulting in increase in drag for no decrease in diameter of turn (that is, maneuverability), resulting in increased energy loss during maneuvers, leaving aircraft more and more vulnerable to missiles and gunfire as fight drags on. In short, aircraft does not fly in direction its nose is pointing at.

However you do not even understand why the formula uses W-L+T sin(c)=Fv to get the vertical force.

Does the nozzle occupy the same location as the aircraft's center-of-gravity? The answer is no. Therefore, your equation does not describe effects of thrust vectoring on an actual combat aircraft and is therefore irrelevant.

I will simplify it for you

Torque is a vector, in fact is called cross product, if you know that you will understand the whole thrust vectoring issue as a vector system.

The cross product, also called the vector product, is an operation on two vectors.
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Torque is defined as

= r x F = r F sin().

In other words, torque is the cross product between the distance vector (the distance from the pivot point to the point where force is applied) and the force vector, 'a' being the angle between r and F.

source

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The aircraft is pitching up as the product of the thrust projection on the aircraft and the cross product of the center of gravity.

The resultant can be expressed as the vertical element affecting lift


What does it mean? simple the resultant increases the picth momentum and this is translated into higher sustained turn rate.

Good advice my friend read linear algebra.

Nope. Increase of pitch momentum does not not translate to higher sustained turn rate. Turn rate has to do with the amount of lift that an aircraft can generate. Pitch momentum does not result in extra lift, so does not impact sustained turn rate.

 

[jobjed]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

angular velocity means turn rate, so obviously you do not mention that, that vector is increasing the turn rate.

Oh for flying monkey's sake, you've finally come clean. TVC increases pitch rate, NOT LIFT! For the sake of humanity's average IQ, I hope you understand the difference between pitch and lift.

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Oh for flying monkey's sake, you've finally come clean. TVC increases pitch rate, NOT LIFT! For the sake of humanity's average IQ, I hope you understand the difference between pitch and lift.

Do you understand the concept of direction? or of vector resultant?

If the Thrust projection on the gravity vector lifts the nose up and increases the turn rate is acting in the same direction of the lift vector, for such a reason the turn rate increases.

Vectors are forces as such the force on the same direction is adding to lift.

see this in the equation

Vertical: L - W + T sin(c) = Fv in the NASA webpage

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

So much lies. The document was not a study, but a sales brochure authored by ITP presented at a conference held by NATO. The list of authors are listed at the beginning of the document and NATO was not an author. No one believed the claims in the paper, since no one brought the TVN. Meanwhile,

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proves how much you deny things even when it is explicitly stated that aircraft with TVC turns at the same rate as non-TVC aircraft.




Does the nozzle occupy the same location as the aircraft's center-of-gravity? The answer is no. Therefore, your equation does not describe effects of thrust vectoring on an actual combat aircraft and is therefore irrelevant.




Nope. Increase of pitch momentum does not not translate to higher sustained turn rate. Turn rate has to do with the amount of lift that an aircraft can generate. Pitch momentum does not result in extra lift, so does not impact sustained turn rate.

You just deny reality as such you think others should deny reality, thrust vectoring increases turn rate but or hysterically you will say no no no no no no, denying reality and claiming all your fantasies.

Of course you do not see Fv and Fh will determine the vectors in the flight path

 

[MiG-29]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Too much fantasy. You are unable to prove me wrong and that is why you selected one single word and took the entire web page out of context. That is a great fallacy known as

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

. You forgot to mention how the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

explains torque being about the center-of-gravity of an object. In other words, change in angular velocity refers to the change in pitch rate. This has nothing to do with turn rate since the center of turn is not the same as center-of-gravity. Allow me to expose the lies that you are making with a quote from the

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:


.

Look you jsut deny reality and increase in angular velocity means turn rate because the aircraft is turning.

Gravity is a vector and is working as vector in the center of gravity, it is a cross product of the vector gravity and the thrust projection, as such you are using sine and trigonometry but of course you did not know i bet you do not know what is cross product.


But let me repeat your style of denying reality.

No no no, your document does not prove Thrust vectoring increases turn rate no no no.

Look for me, thi iss my last answer to you live in fantasy is really boring to answer to a guy who even having the evidence of NATO and ITP proving turn rate is increased by thrust vectoring still has the lack of honesty of saying it is not.

See you live in your fantasy world

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

You just deny reality as such you think others should deny reality, thrust vectoring increases turn rate but or hysterically you will say no no no no no no, denying reality and claiming all your fantasies.

Of course you do not see Fv and Fh will determine the vectors in the flight path

Wrong. I am presenting a reality by pointing out thrust vectoring does not increase turn rate. Thrust vectoring produces moment, not vertical force that is aerodynamics lift. To turn, an aircraft must accelerate toward the center of turn which can only be done via lift. Therefore, thrust vectoring does not increase turn rate. That is just simple Laws of Physics at work, and no amount of denial on your part can alter that.

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Do you understand the concept of direction? or of vector resultant?

If the Thrust projection on the gravity vector lifts the nose up and increases the turn rate is acting in the same direction of the lift vector, for such a reason the turn rate increases.

Wrong. Pitch rate is the angular velocity of the aircraft about the center-of-gravity, while turn rate is not. Therefore, pitch rate does not equal to turn rate, and moment generated b thrust vectoring does not affect turn rate.

Vectors are forces as such the force on the same direction is adding to lift.

see this in the equation

Vertical: L - W + T sin(c) = Fv in the NASA webpage

The equation above assumes the position of the nozzle to be coincided with the position of center-of-gravity. Due to that, the equation doesn't describe a fighter aircraft. A glaring error is that the equation does not permit thrust vectoring to generate pitch moment, which is obviously contradicted by real world observation.

On a real aircraft, the nozzle is some distance apart from center-of-gravity. By the

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, the side component of thrust made by thrust vectoring produces pitching moment. This is related to rotational motion, and has not thing to do with straight motion caused by lift.

 

[Engineer]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Look you jsut deny reality and increase in angular velocity means turn rate because the aircraft is turning.

Gravity is a vector and is working as vector in the center of gravity, it is a cross product of the vector gravity and the thrust projection, as such you are using sine and trigonometry but of course you did not know i bet you do not know what is cross product.


But let me repeat your style of denying reality.

No no no, your document does not prove Thrust vectoring increases turn rate no no no.

Wrong. I am presenting a reality which you are denying because you need to keep your fantasy afloat. Pitch rate is not turn rate. Pitch rate refers to the rotational motion about the aircraft's center-of-gravity. Turn is a rotation about a center that is completely outside of the aircraft.

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, pitching moment is exerted about center-of-gravity:

The product of the force and the perpendicular distance to the center of gravity for an unconfined object, or to the pivot for a confined object, is M called the torque or the moment.

Once again, your lies are exposed.

Look for me, thi iss my last answer to you live in fantasy is really boring to answer to a guy who even having the evidence of NATO and ITP proving turn rate is increased by thrust vectoring still has the lack of honesty of saying it is not.

See you live in your fantasy world

Wrong. Firstly, NATO was not an author. It was even said so in the paper, so don't try to misrepresent the content in that document as statements from NATO. Secondly, as a sale brochure the document lacks honesty. For example, Figure 3 of that document illustrates pitch moment contributions on the Eurofighter, but simultaneously ignored contribution from the canard. That is the same sort of

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and dishonesty that you are pulling. Since a simple person like me can spot the fallacy, no doubt Eurofighter operators did as well. There is not a single order of that TVN, which showed the operators do not believe in the claims made in that document. If you have trouble with that, go and complain with the various air forces in Europe.

The simple fact is that thrust vectoring does not increase lift, thus does not increase turn rate.

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:

At these speeds, TVC-equipped aircraft (lower one in animation) actually turns at same rate as non-TVC aircraft; however, TVC increases angle between aircraft and air flow around it (Angle of Attack, abbreviated AoA), resulting in increase in drag for no decrease in diameter of turn (that is, maneuverability), resulting in increased energy loss during maneuvers, leaving aircraft more and more vulnerable to missiles and gunfire as fight drags on. In short, aircraft does not fly in direction its nose is pointing at.

Ignoring it isn't going to make it go away.