academic-industry-military complex, the key to be an advanced nation

That's way too simplistic.

If a local company controls the standard, the other local companies would band and create a standard to beat that. In the end, they will all create alliances with foreign companies to go against each other.

If a foreign company controls that standard, other foreign companies would brand and create a standard to beat that. In the end, they will create alliances with the local companies to go against each other.

The ultimate result is going to force a global consensus on standards. GSM is an example of this.

Its funny how you look at the divide being foreign vs. local. In the private world, these distinctions don't exist. It will be like Apple vs. Microsoft, Ford vs. GM, Toyota vs. Honda, Coke vs. Pepsi, Boeing vs. Airbus.

a country can have 2 type of markets simultaneously.
Free spirited open market for normal business and invidual consumers.
then there's the restrictive military, academics, and givernement institutions.
You can have 2 standards exist concurrently.

I am proposing the governemnt should play a bigger role in the restrictive sector just like US industry-military complex where they don't allow defensive companies outsourcing, and they don't accept foreign made components. There 's no open standard there.

crobato said:

Of course, government has to fund, manage and lead technological developments in the military sector. The military is after all, part of the government function.

But it becomes another matter when it comes to the private economy.



Technology standards can also be agreed upon, work with a consortium and through consensus. No man can be an island anymore, especially with technology.

Click to expand...

I have to include the whole academic-industry(part of it)-military-government sector as well. I would leave consumers and business alone for now.

For your last statement, not really true, depend on your need & goal.CHina develope the technology for its internal need and usage. They are not meant for export driven. If you develope our stuffs and hoping to sell them oversea, of course you need consider that. But for domestic consumption, it's entirely a different matter where self -development has more priority than global compatibility. You can't have it all. It's a tradeoff.

antimatter said:

a country can have 2 type of markets simultaneously.
Free spirited open market for normal business and invidual consumers.
then there's the restrictive military, academics, and givernement institutions.
You can have 2 standards exist concurrently.

I am proposing the governemnt should play a bigger role in the restrictive sector just like US industry-military complex where they don't allow defensive companies outsourcing, and they don't accept foreign made components. There 's no open standard there.

Click to expand...

First of all, that's not what you were originally saying. You have just totally abandoned your earlier position in the middle of the debate.

Second, I'm sure the Chinese do a lot less outsourcing than their Western counterparts. So your 'proposal' is nothing more than actuality.

FugitiveVisions said:

First of all, that's not what you were originally saying. You have just totally abandoned your earlier position in the middle of the debate.

Second, I'm sure the Chinese do a lot less outsourcing than their Western counterparts. So your 'proposal' is nothing more than actuality.

Click to expand...

not really, I suggesting now the govrenment should take a bigger role in promoting the R&D areas of the academic and industry complex, which I mentione many times.

but when CHina become more of a developed nation then begin the second phase, should be much more self reliant.
or when its export is not making much money, then I suggest it to quit WTO completely

antimatter said:

not really, I suggesting now the govrenment should take a bigger role in promoting the R&D areas of the academic and industry complex, which I mentione many times.

but when CHina become more of a developed nation then begin the second phase, should be much more self reliant.
or when its export is not making much money, then I suggest it to quit WTO completely

Click to expand...

You keep talking about the supply chain like you know something about the subject, and then comes up with this jem. Don't you know that China doesn't possess all the necessarily raw material to come up with a finished good, no matter how technologically advanced it is? You do know that before you have a finished good, you must have the raw materials to build it first........right?

deleted

China's first super computer off the assembly line in Tianjin
+ -
14:56, September 17, 2008


On the morning of September 16, China's first high performance supercomputer Shuguang 5000A came off the assembly line in Tianjin.

"Shuguang 5000A not only makes China the second country after the United States that has the ability to research, develop, produce and use supercomputer with computing speed over 100 trillion times per second, but also greatly enhance China's technological competitiveness and overall national strength. It is a major breakthrough of China's independent innovation and industrialization." Vice president of Beijing Branch of Chinese Academy of Sciences Qiao Junlu said.

President of Dawning Information Industry Co., Ltd Li Jun said, "Shuguang 5000A takes investment of more than 200 million yuan, and more than 500 scientists are involved in its research and development. It produces more than 50 technical patents, and is currently China's fastest, most efficient supercomputer with the lowest consumption of energy. "

Shuguang 5000A can reach peak computing speed of 230 trillion times per second.

By People's Daily Online




Dawning: China's new super computer

By Malcolm Moore in Shanghai
Last Updated: 11:01am BST 02/09/2008

China has built the world's seventh-fastest super computer, in another sign of its ambition to be a leading force in high-technology.

Don Grice of IBM inspecting Roadrunner, the world's fastest computer
IBM's Roadrunner is five times faster than the Chinese computer, but cost more than three times as much

The Dawning 5,000A, which will be installed in Shanghai, will be used for "genome mapping, earthquake appraisal, precise weather forecasts, and stock exchange data," said Hua Nie, the vice president of Dawning. It covers more than 750sq ft of floor space.

The Communist Party believes super computers are essential to China's efforts in science and advanced design.

The Dawning was finished too late to be included in the official rankings of the world's most powerful machines, which was released last week. However, the Dawning is thought to be only slightly slower than the sixth-ranked IBM Blue Gene/P computer at the Juelich Research Centre in Germany.

Five of the world's top ten fastest computers are built by IBM, and the world's number one, Roadrunner, sits in the Los Alamos Laboratory of the US Energy Department and is used for military applications.
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Roadrunner is five times faster than the Chinese computer, but cost more than three times the £15 million price tag of the Dawning.

Nevertheless the Dawning computer can do 160 trillion computations a second, otherwise known as flops. China is one of only a handful of countries, including Japan and Korea, which has been capable of building such a machine. The fastest super computer in the UK, Hector, is a 63 trillion flop machine.

China is also aiming to build three other super computers, which are 10 times as fast as the Dawning 5,000. Lenovo is building one at the Chinese Academy of Science in Beijing, while Shanghai and Shenzen will host the others.

Those computers are also likely to use Chinese-made microchips, rather than the Intel and AMD chips that are currently popular.

The state media said China had been forced to develop its own super computer technology because the US refused to allow advanced super computers to be sold to Communist state because of security worries.



A new Dawning for Shanghai Supercomputer Center

Beijing. June 26. INTERFAX-CHINA - The Shanghai Supercomputer Center has signed an agreement with Dawning Information Industry (Beijing) Co. Ltd. and the Chinese Academy of Sciences' (CAS) Institute of Computing Technology to install the Chinese home-grown supercomputer, Dawning5000, the center announced Tuesday.



Supercomputer Advances To New Level In China

China's fastest supercomputer, Dawning 4000A.
Shanghai, China (XNA) Nov 19, 2004
The fastest supercomputer in China - Dawning4000A, which operates at a speed of 11 trillion calculations per second, was officially started at Shanghai Supercomputer Center (SSC) on Monday.

It signifies not only that China has become the third country after the US, Japan, which has surmounted the development and application of computers with a speed of 10 trillion calculations per second, but also that the largest main grid node in China has launched into operation and a "Three Gorges Dam" is being constructed in the information technology area.

At the launching ceremony Chen Liangyu, member of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China and Party Secretary of the Shanghai Party Committee, started the Dawning4000A system and the first group of 11 application tasks were submitted to the system.

As the southern main node of the national grid Dawning4000A also successfully connected with China's national grid for the first time to provide computing services to users far in Beijing.

With the development of science and technology and economy high-performance computer level is increasingly become an important indicator of a country's R&D strength.

In order to meet the growing demand for high-performance computing in Shanghai, east China and even the whole country, the fully loaded SSC started in 2003 to plan the second-phase expansion project - one of the main projects of Shanghai information port.

The 10 trillion-calculations computer, Dawning4000A was favorably viewed and became the main content of the second-phase expansion project.

Under the joint efforts by the Institute of Computer Technology of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Dawning Corporation and Shanghai Supercomputer Center, Dawning4000A was developed in June and ranked 10th on the list of world's top high-performance computers released that month.

In August installation of the system was completed in Shanghai and in September it entered test operation phase.

During the test operation phase as the largest main node in China's national grid and the information network center that provides services for east China and even the whole country, the SSC added commercialized application software worth of tens of millions of yuan and successfully conducted a series of tests in high-performance computer application.

Source: Xinhua News Agency

kliu0 said:

Resources availability is also important as mentioned by FugitiveVisions, without resources you can't do anything. Don't forget at this rate, China is running out of resources. Its pretty evident, as China is signing contracts with nations all over the world to guarantee resources. But as global resouces decrease, China will unlikely get them with no matter how much money China has. Its become everyone for themselves, or with your closest allies.

Click to expand...

You guys are confusing with the concept of WTO.

WTO is not same thing as procuring resources. Like what they are getting iton ores from austrialia and brazil has no bearing on status of WTO.
THose two keep jacking up the price up and up to the point of CHina wanting to pay big money take over of some of their assets there just to break up their monopoly on price.

Also, WTO has nothing to with foreign companies try to establish presence in CHina. It has alot to do with foreigners bring Finished goods into China. CHina wants to them setup plant to manufacturing products locally.

Well for WTO, it's getting worst and worst, first the Doha round failed because India and CHina want to protect their domestic agricultures.

NOw, it's heating up, Canada, US, and EU ganged up to file complaint to WTO about CHina 's tax on auto parts. They try to break open CHina's auto parts market. Of course CHina is fighting back.

WHile they try to break open on one end, the also try to protect their stuffs by imposing anti-dumping duty of some of CHina 's products. of course china is also fighting back on this.

It's going to get nastier and nastier as CHina become more wealthy, more foreign country want to break open CHina's market. CHina will fight back..


After quitting WTO, probably more foreigners want to set up plants there because that's the only way to be part of China's market.

Simply, CHina stays in WTO now because it has export suplus . By the time they reach mid level per capita GDP, I see the advantage of joining WTO has disappeared .

Quitting WTO=Isolation is a terribly wrong concept.

antimatter said:

Simply, CHina stays in WTO now because it has export suplus . By the time they reach mid level per capita GDP, I see the advantage of joining WTO has disappeared .

Quitting WTO=Isolation is a terribly wrong concept.

Click to expand...

You are right, because being in the WTO has no impact on trade of raw materials and intermediate goods. Brilliant. I suggest that you pass on your idea to Hank Paulson, because he doesn't seem to remember that the US has a GDP per capita of over 6,000 or that it is running a trade deficit, which as we all know, automatically makes being a member in the WTO a bad idea.

IF you ask me when and how China quit WTO and kick out foreign business, I would say by the time they reach $6000 per capita, and have no brand name stuffs to show for. Then, that's the time.

Click to expand...

Kick out foreign business = isolationism? My, I guess we are just a whole bunch of retards that don't have a shred of common sense.