not really, SM-2, ESSM and RAM all have anti-shipping capability. That's probably why you don't see Harpoon on the newer Burkes.
AAD warship comparison exercise - type 051C and 052C in context of world navies
- Thread starter planeman
- Start date
Lol, Sea Dart has an anti-ship capability.... hardly compares to a proper anti-ship missile though.
RAM has a range less than the ship's 5" gun, why would an Al'Burke fire a compariatively expensive RAM with a less damaging warhead instead?
ESSM, pretty much similar story although it might outrange the 5" on a good day.
Standard as an anti-ship missile is a bit over-rated IMO. Although its effectiveness is not publically stated, we must remember that it is (in most versions) semi-active not active seeker (not fire and forget) and has a small warhead. It is fast though.
I think the real reason that the Al'Burkes don't carry Harpoons is because the USN relies on its air wings for anti-ship punch. In the USN concept of operations the enemy won't get close enough for ship based Harpoon to be needed anyway.
Of course, fighter planes don't need guns....
RAM has a range less than the ship's 5" gun, why would an Al'Burke fire a compariatively expensive RAM with a less damaging warhead instead?
ESSM, pretty much similar story although it might outrange the 5" on a good day.
Standard as an anti-ship missile is a bit over-rated IMO. Although its effectiveness is not publically stated, we must remember that it is (in most versions) semi-active not active seeker (not fire and forget) and has a small warhead. It is fast though.
I think the real reason that the Al'Burkes don't carry Harpoons is because the USN relies on its air wings for anti-ship punch. In the USN concept of operations the enemy won't get close enough for ship based Harpoon to be needed anyway.
Of course, fighter planes don't need guns....
Tactical Tomahawk also is utilized as an anti-ship system. The reason you don't see Harpoons on newer Burkes is because of cost considerations. Stupid but true. Plus those ships are the ones getting loaded with the TacTom's first. TMakes sense as they lost the Harpoons. The trend now is to get everything incorporated into VLS. If and when the USN buys more Harpoons in the future, they will buy Harpoon II's which are VLS capable. It's no surprise that Baseline 7 incorporated all the electronics necessary for Harpoon II. But for now, the newer Burkes use SM-2's, ESSM, and TacTom as their anti-ship systems. That covers all areas of ASuW in total.
Yeah, forgot cost. Lol.
Re the Al'Burke's missile fit. They have two Mk 41 VLS with a total of 90/96 cells.
ESSM is said to be fitted to DDG 79 onwards. 4 ESSM fit 1 cell of the Mk 41.
Both TacTom and ESSM are relatively new systems and probably aren't fully deployed yet across the whole fleet, but some destroyers have both(?).
What are the typical missile loads being deployed?
a mass attack of ESSM on any ship is hard to deal with.
I know that Baseline 7 allows the firing of Harpoon.
As for Tomahawk, I have a question actually. I thought there is a LACM version and anti-ship version or is it just one missile that can go after both land targets and moving sea targets?
I know that Baseline 7 allows the firing of Harpoon.
As for Tomahawk, I have a question actually. I thought there is a LACM version and anti-ship version or is it just one missile that can go after both land targets and moving sea targets?
Flight I AB's have 90 cells. Flight IIA AB's have 96 cells. And yes, ESSM has been fitted on DDG 79 and beyond, but can be backfitted on older ships. Both ESSM and TacTom are newer systems. We know that the priority of these systems are going on DDG-79 and beyond for now. But TacTom deliveries have been steady since 2004, with more than 500 delivered so far. By the end of 2007, there should be close to 900 delivered. The benchmark was 292 systems delivered per annum initially. And they have met that easily. Right now, TacTom is a totally fielded system. I'm not sure about ESSM deliveries or benchmarks though. But I believe they have seen no setbacks either.
Missile loads on these ships have always varied on deployment criteria and mission parameters. In war time, threat assessments would also factor into that equation. But having a large number of multi-mission battle force missiles gives you alot of options. Basically if you load 30 TacToms, you have a load of 30 LACM's or 30 ASM's. Or 15/15. Whatever you want. You have alot of flexibility here. If you load 60 SM-2's, you have 60 AAW missiles, but a potential 60 ASM's also.
The SM-2 missile is very capable in the anti-ship role BTW. You do realize that the launching ship doesn't need to necessarily guide the missile all the way to target. It just needs a certain frequency band uplink on channel in terminal mode. The launching ship need not provide it. I'll agree, it's not the best option in ASuW warfare. But it's more than adequate for mission performance. I've been a part of ASuW exercises, and on one, the "enemy" surface package would not have survived the engagement. I can't say who we practiced against, or where we were doing it, but our group put over 40 SM-2's on them without them even realizing we were there. And they were looking for us.
planeman said:
Yes, that is a primacy in USN ASuW concepts. But also, it is much easier, and more efficient for USN SSN's to eliminate enemy forces far in front of CSG ops as well. The other option considered is ASM's launched from cruisers and destroyers. These are only concepts in delivery divergance. The USN Admiral on the carrier has more options at his disposal now that at any time in USN history.
tphuang said:
It's the same missile. TASM is officially gone forever. And Block II and III missiles are still in use, but are used against land targets only. TacTom gives the ability to loiter, has real time imagery, and "man in the loop features" which allow re-attack options and precise surface strike. In the land attack role it can re-attack against mobile land based assets, or if the target has been destroyed, can be retargeted against something else that may need prosecution. Very useful for terrorists groups on the move also.
Last edited:
lol, you are getting me really curious now!
When you say real time imagery, do you mean it is using some kind of IIR seeker?
I'm not sure how they accomplish this. These are things the Navy and the manufacturer list as missile functions. I have never seen a TacTom used in service. It's a brand new system. I only know this is possible due to open source information by different sources. Would be interesting to know how this is accomplished though.