2022 Zhuhai Airshow Land Systems
- Thread starter by78
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Thanks for writing such a wordy reply. No need to explain the ammo layout to me, I already mentioned this in the type 15 thread, but people still firmly believe it's carousel loader's fault and are as morbidly religious that isolation plate is the be-all and end-all, while ignoring the pros and cons of each design.
Secondly I think you are being overly biased towards type99. type99 being a turn of the century design (99A prototype was around 2001) has a lot of obsolescence. Also PLA tank units have some traditions, and what could be called bad habits in this case actually make the type99 more prone to martyrdom.
Finally I don't really agree with you about the choice of IFV fire system. The BMP3 system was born when the mainstream western IFVs were equipped with 25mm machine guns (M2) with a level of defense that could withstand 14.5mm machine gun rounds, it's hard to say what their impact was on the BMP3 system during the development process. On the contrary, the BMP3 had a 100mm-gun solution and a 30mm-gun solution discussed during the development process, but in the end a combination of both was unexpectedly chosen. My guess is that it was influenced by the first Soviet IFV, as it had a 73mm gun that could be used against enemies behind cover. Meanwhile the BMP2 although good at killing light vehicles, exposed infantry targets lacked anti-tank capability and the ability to deal with enemies behind cover. So the Soviets combined them, with the 100mm gun available for assault and against heavily armored targets (MBT) and the 30mm gun for light carriers and exposed infantry.
The obsolescence of this system depended on the primary opponent of the country using it. For China, it would not really engage advanced Western IFVs, while the 100mm-gun charge is already sufficient to disable enemies inside buildings for short periods of time, suggesting that the weapon is still suitable.
For Russia it would be bad, the 100mm gun cannon-launched missile would not be able to penetrate the frontal armor of a modern western MBT, or even a 30 gun would not be able to penetrate the frontal armor of an advanced western IFV (like PUMA), then the BMP3's weapon system would be obsolete. If I remember correctly the Russians tested the 40mm gun in Syria and the results were not that good.
Then they finally gave the following answer: the original 2A72 was responsible for the target handed over to the 2A94 to deal with light and medium armor threats like IFVs. 57AP is relatively easy to hit those indicator resistant to 30 guns. On the other hand, the size of the 57mm gun is naturally exponentially larger than the 30mm gun, and at this point it is obviously impractical to juxtapose a large caliber gun, so the original 100mm gun function will have to be given to the missiles to deal with. The missile here further refined its function according to the target, as the original 100mm gun had two functions - assault and anti-armor. The original 100mm HEAT is responsible for the offensive function, but here it is left to the smaller multipurpose missile. Despite the smaller size, with the temperature and pressure/attack warhead, its offensive capability is still considerable; while the anti-armor piece, the original 100mm gun guide power is awkward, can not be heavy anti-armor task, this time the Russians directly replaced with four 9M113 heavy anti-tank missiles, the power can be considered sufficient.
Back to the VN20, as a foreign trade weapon, whether its weapon system is obsolete is determined by the purchasing country. If the enemy of the buying country is mainly equipped with various pickup trucks, then obviously there is no need for the 40mm guns.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Okay 1) I hardly wrote a “Gushing” review of the Type 99. By response was “Pretty much the same story as T90 which is hardly a bias in its favor nor against it.
2) Only one nation in the west adopted the 25mm IFV gun. The US. Others might have mounted it in recon vehicles but it really doesn’t get in any other IFV until after BMP3 is first introduced but stagnated due to the collapse of the USSR. Then it catches on with wheeled and some tracked mostly in smaller nations with less of an armored threat concern but all after BMP3 was known and the Red Army was stunted by the fall.
most of its contemporaries were either older 20mm or 30mm guns with a small number of exceptions like the Japanese type 89 with a 35mm. The BMP3 started as far back as the 70s but didn’t enter service until the early 1990s at about that same time the west was openly working on 35mm/40mm/45mm/50mm gun systems for IFV. In the late 70s and early 80s the US Army had openly been developing a light tank packing a 75mm automatic cannon. They felt that wasn’t enough to take some more modern AFV so they moved up to a 90mm Automatic cannon!! Event
The Germans were working on the Marder II with a 35mm gun in 1987 with field trails slated for 1991. The US was involved and let’s put a pin in that.
However Reunification put the Kibash on that. The US army was working on the XM295 a 45mm CTA gun in joint with the British and French. That would form the basis of the work the UK and French would complete for the 40mm CTA.
Now remember I said the US was involved in the Marder II? Let’s pull that pin. The Marder II 35mm gun was developed as a joint with the US and was also capable of firing 50x228mm Super Shot.
in the post Soviet era much of this work was abandoned. A few stuck around. The CV90 adopted a modernization of the old Bufors the US looked at the 40mm super forty on its own the French and English completed 40cta.
That the 100mm the BMP3 fired isn’t able to punch through the front of an Abrams or Leopard2 or modern MBT isn’t important. It never could to begin with. That’s what the ATGMs are for. That it can wreck a ASCOD, or Puma or Bradley is. The Tank busting weapons of IFV are the ATGM. If however a BMP3 commander ever happened to find himself behind and Enemy MBT or to the side I am sure he wouldn’t complain.
IFV guns are not meant to take tanks if they find themselves having to then Shit has hit the fan. Now under the right circumstances, Shit hits the fan but luck has kicked in. The IFV find itself in a position where the Tank is vulnerable. 73 Eastings a Bradley claims to have taken a T72 with the 25mm. How? He was literally was shooting point blank into the turret from on top of him having rolled up on a T72 in a dug in position.
Just as most IFV are built with a front to take a 30mm hit well the sides only rate MG fire heavy MG at best so to is the Tank. A few well placed 25 or 30mm shells in the back of the T72 will kill it.
Now I have no idea what you are claiming that the Russians tested the 40mm in Syria because the western 40mm weren’t deployed there. The Chinese one is just starting and this far no evidence of export. Perhaps an old Bufors AA gun but the Russians should have those they date back to WW2.
Next. Well true the 57 vs 30mm is a sacrifice in capacity of ammunition capacity however vs the 100mm it’s reversed. The Bakal turret stores about 150 rounds (I have seen higher figures)of 57mm vs 40 rounds of 100mm. Since the 30mm capacity of most IFV isn’t that big to begin with which do you think is more effective? I mean if you feel you need the 30mm more than ditching the 100 would give you far more than 500 rounds of it after all the space of the 100mm shells not to mention the weight would by a substantially larger 30mm magazine. If you feel you need the extra HE than the 57mm is 150>100 at 40 plus it has plenty of KE. If you want the infantry to be happier the 30mm only buys them a better ride well trading reserve magazine space.
If your nation is only fighting enemies with trucks than VN20 no matter the configuration is overkill. The money could be better spent on lighter IFVs with 30mm guns. Or just 14.5mm MGs on turreted APCs or MRAPs.
2) Only one nation in the west adopted the 25mm IFV gun. The US. Others might have mounted it in recon vehicles but it really doesn’t get in any other IFV until after BMP3 is first introduced but stagnated due to the collapse of the USSR. Then it catches on with wheeled and some tracked mostly in smaller nations with less of an armored threat concern but all after BMP3 was known and the Red Army was stunted by the fall.
most of its contemporaries were either older 20mm or 30mm guns with a small number of exceptions like the Japanese type 89 with a 35mm. The BMP3 started as far back as the 70s but didn’t enter service until the early 1990s at about that same time the west was openly working on 35mm/40mm/45mm/50mm gun systems for IFV. In the late 70s and early 80s the US Army had openly been developing a light tank packing a 75mm automatic cannon. They felt that wasn’t enough to take some more modern AFV so they moved up to a 90mm Automatic cannon!! Event
The Germans were working on the Marder II with a 35mm gun in 1987 with field trails slated for 1991. The US was involved and let’s put a pin in that.
However Reunification put the Kibash on that. The US army was working on the XM295 a 45mm CTA gun in joint with the British and French. That would form the basis of the work the UK and French would complete for the 40mm CTA.
Now remember I said the US was involved in the Marder II? Let’s pull that pin. The Marder II 35mm gun was developed as a joint with the US and was also capable of firing 50x228mm Super Shot.
in the post Soviet era much of this work was abandoned. A few stuck around. The CV90 adopted a modernization of the old Bufors the US looked at the 40mm super forty on its own the French and English completed 40cta.
That the 100mm the BMP3 fired isn’t able to punch through the front of an Abrams or Leopard2 or modern MBT isn’t important. It never could to begin with. That’s what the ATGMs are for. That it can wreck a ASCOD, or Puma or Bradley is. The Tank busting weapons of IFV are the ATGM. If however a BMP3 commander ever happened to find himself behind and Enemy MBT or to the side I am sure he wouldn’t complain.
IFV guns are not meant to take tanks if they find themselves having to then Shit has hit the fan. Now under the right circumstances, Shit hits the fan but luck has kicked in. The IFV find itself in a position where the Tank is vulnerable. 73 Eastings a Bradley claims to have taken a T72 with the 25mm. How? He was literally was shooting point blank into the turret from on top of him having rolled up on a T72 in a dug in position.
Just as most IFV are built with a front to take a 30mm hit well the sides only rate MG fire heavy MG at best so to is the Tank. A few well placed 25 or 30mm shells in the back of the T72 will kill it.
Now I have no idea what you are claiming that the Russians tested the 40mm in Syria because the western 40mm weren’t deployed there. The Chinese one is just starting and this far no evidence of export. Perhaps an old Bufors AA gun but the Russians should have those they date back to WW2.
Next. Well true the 57 vs 30mm is a sacrifice in capacity of ammunition capacity however vs the 100mm it’s reversed. The Bakal turret stores about 150 rounds (I have seen higher figures)of 57mm vs 40 rounds of 100mm. Since the 30mm capacity of most IFV isn’t that big to begin with which do you think is more effective? I mean if you feel you need the 30mm more than ditching the 100 would give you far more than 500 rounds of it after all the space of the 100mm shells not to mention the weight would by a substantially larger 30mm magazine. If you feel you need the extra HE than the 57mm is 150>100 at 40 plus it has plenty of KE. If you want the infantry to be happier the 30mm only buys them a better ride well trading reserve magazine space.
If your nation is only fighting enemies with trucks than VN20 no matter the configuration is overkill. The money could be better spent on lighter IFVs with 30mm guns. Or just 14.5mm MGs on turreted APCs or MRAPs.
The 30mm round used in the Bushmaster II and 2A42 gun have different case lengths. The US round should have more space for propellant. So of course that translates to more muzzle velocity and range. But the tradeoff is lower rate of fire and higher recoil.
The Soviets used to have even longer cased 30mm rounds they used in their naval CIWS (AK-230) but they removed it from service. They prefer the higher fire rate of the shorter cased rounds. Also, the effective ammo range depends on the ammo type, the Russian 30mm rounds of APFSDS type have 3km effective range.
The Soviets used to have even longer cased 30mm rounds they used in their naval CIWS (AK-230) but they removed it from service. They prefer the higher fire rate of the shorter cased rounds. Also, the effective ammo range depends on the ammo type, the Russian 30mm rounds of APFSDS type have 3km effective range.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Rate of fire if the Bushmaster II is about 100-200 rpm. Rate of fire for the Shipunov 300-400 round so yes partially true the cost is energy of the round. The M230LF or the M242 have similar rates of fire with also similar reduced power yet the range and HE trade offs have deemed them better suited to support or weight sensitive applications. M-SHORAD, Gunship helicopters.
Farther if raw volume of fire is your aim why only 500 rounds? Why no reserve magazine? why not use the space of the 100mm shells carousel to double if not triple the ammunition capacity? Or go down farther to a smaller caliber.
Bradley ready rounds are only 300 but it also stows 600 more.
the Bulgarian BMP23 had a 600 round capacity of 23mm shells.
The Soviets it seems chose to universalize around the 30x165mm for Light and heavy vehicles, Aircraft and Naval applications. It’s the same no matter if you are flying a Ka52, Driving a BMP2, on a naval ship or manning the Turret of a Typhoon L.
Farther if raw volume of fire is your aim why only 500 rounds? Why no reserve magazine? why not use the space of the 100mm shells carousel to double if not triple the ammunition capacity? Or go down farther to a smaller caliber.
Bradley ready rounds are only 300 but it also stows 600 more.
the Bulgarian BMP23 had a 600 round capacity of 23mm shells.
The Soviets it seems chose to universalize around the 30x165mm for Light and heavy vehicles, Aircraft and Naval applications. It’s the same no matter if you are flying a Ka52, Driving a BMP2, on a naval ship or manning the Turret of a Typhoon L.
The M2 Bradley is heavier than the BMP-3 and yet it can carry less troops total. You have to trade something for another.
More space for ammunition means less space for troops. But I agree with you that the Soviets went for the common caliber among all platforms and that is the main reason. The common caliber has obvious logistics advantages but it leads to mismatched performance in some cases.
The fact is the Russians should have switched to the Kurganets-25 IFV chassis years ago. The reason why they did not would take a long time to explain properly. But in this case it is proven there was a lot of corruption involved, including embezzlement at Kurganmashzavod, and people were arrested even. The private company it was part of was dismembered after it went bankrupt and the factory was put under the umbrella of Rostec in 2019.
More space for ammunition means less space for troops. But I agree with you that the Soviets went for the common caliber among all platforms and that is the main reason. The common caliber has obvious logistics advantages but it leads to mismatched performance in some cases.
The fact is the Russians should have switched to the Kurganets-25 IFV chassis years ago. The reason why they did not would take a long time to explain properly. But in this case it is proven there was a lot of corruption involved, including embezzlement at Kurganmashzavod, and people were arrested even. The private company it was part of was dismembered after it went bankrupt and the factory was put under the umbrella of Rostec in 2019.
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TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Bradley is heavier but this isn’t just the ammunition space. It’s allow that the infantry isn’t folded in like some kind of human origami. Russian vehicles are notorious for their ergonomics or lack there in. In general the Bradley and BMP3 actually carry about the same infantry and crew load 7+3. Yet between the two vehicles you would feel more comfortable in a Bradley. Not luxury car comfort by any means but not folded into a box.
by78
General
According to a Weibo poster who chatted with a NORINCO rep, the unmanned VT5-U shown at Zhuhai this year requires three persons to remotely operate, presumably in the role the driver, gunner, and commander. The reason for this is that the system is based on an existing manned tank, so the system integration can only go so far. However, each operator's control terminal is very compact, roughly tablet sized and can therefore be easily deployed in the field. Only line-of-sight control is available when using these compact terminals, so the range isn't very far. For NLOS remote control over far greater distances, a larger dedicated control station is used that is similar to ones used to fly UAVs, presumably over a satellite link. Moreover, the remote operation system is platform agnostic, meaning it can be retrofitted to other armored vehicles. The team behind the system only had a VT5 to play around with, and that's why a VT5 was shown at Zhuhai. Had they had access to a VT4 MBT, they would have shown a VT4-U instead. The NORINCO rep also revealed that the system started out as a response to the American next-generation optional manned tank (OMT) program.
