2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

The Czech member of the group of the OSCE observers, held in Slavyansk and released this afternoon, just said (hope he didn't make it up LOL) the toughest were the first eight hours, during which they were kept blindfolded and with their hands tied, and watched at all time (including toilets); his rank corresponds to lieutenant colonel, I believe

Pardon the length of this in advance, but some things need to be said.

Here at SD we work hard to ensure that this forum is kept professional and above the ideological fray. It is first and foremost a technical/professional forum about the developments of Chinese Defense and Military technologies, platforms, equipment, and systems, hence the name, "Sino Defence Forum."

Over the years we have allowed equal technical/professional discussions about all militaries, and that has worked out fine.

We have also opened up the forum to world news, and member discussions about almost any subject...but in this we sometimes have high emotions and a lot of ideological wrangling. That almost always leads to emotions, anger, arguments, and ultimate member discipline on the forum.

This issue in Ukraine is a difficult one. It is important news. We have good members of this forum from both sides of this issue, and some who are getting heated and emotional. The Ukraine sits at a pivotal crossroads between East and West and particularly between Russia and the European Union and NATO.

In the future, reports and discussions about this event have to back away from the ideology here on SD. This is not an ideological/political forum. Period.

Reports on events, the straight up news, without the ideological spin. Do not include links to reports that do so. News reports about the straight up facts about what happened are fine. But opinion pieces that push an agenda one way or another are not. They MUST stop from this point on.

This is easy for we moderators on both sides to handle. We simply will delete those links/articles and warn members (on both sides) who engage in it. If you continue you will be suspended. If you continue more, you will be banned. If you do something bad enough the first time you may be banned. This is already consistent with the rules of behavior on this forum. Read them.

People can discuss that and give their general views. That is fine as long as it is straight forward and not laced with ideological slant. If you want to do that...go somewhere else.

Ideological arguments and emotional discussions are not going to be allowed. We had a member, who had been warned several times and suspended once, who got so wrapped up in this yesterday (and he may well have had reason to be very emotionally because he is from the area) who was glib about many people burning to death. We cannot have that on this forum, on either side.

So, we as moderators are going to be watching.

ANYTHING THAT SMACKS OF IDEOLOGY AND POLITICS WILL BE DELETED AND DISALLOWED.

This goes on either side of the issue.

If it happens, the persons involved will be warned, suspended, or banned (depending on frequency and severity) and the material removed from this point on. If it happens too much, the thread will be closed.

This applies across the forum, but particularly on emotionally and politically charged threads like this one.

Again, this should come as no surprise because it is in absolute conformance with the RULES OF BEHAVIOR of this forum that are already written down for all to see.

Jura said:

Hey, Kurt, a moment ago I noticed some big shot of German Unions said (hope it didn't get lost in translation) 400 thousands jobs in Germany depends on the relationship with Russia (I mean this article:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

What do you think, Kurt?

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It says that the economic situation in Germany is taking a downturn, 400k jobs depend on the exchange with Russia. The sanctions are necessary and must be pulled through, because they do hurt Russia much much more than Germany. Russia is more dependant on Germany than the other way round, forcing them to yield due to the unbalance of the sanction effects.

To put it in context: Current unemployment rate in Germany is very low, the last time we had so little unemployment was 22 years ago in 1992, when the GDR economic institutions had not yet been broken apart. In other words, the economic situation in Germany is excellent despite the effects of the reduced commerce with a most important trading partner.

Guys I thought I knew more about Ukraine LOL I just took the test at
I had no idea what to expect, was heating my dinner in the meantime, and please believe me I miss-clicked once, really anyway:
Your score
16 Correct
5 Wrong
76%
You answered 16 of 21 questions correctly for a total score of 76%.

but Average reader score: 61%

Jura said:

SampanViking, couldn't that be because the BBC doesn't tend to subscribe to conspiracy theories?

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Well, its rather certain that anything that makes the maiden uprising or the US look bad, sounds good to a lot of folks, doesn't seem to matter the source. I would agree Jura that the BBC does have a certain standard of accuracy that most press corp seem to have long abandoned, even our liberal Western press seems to gain a certain "joy" in discrediting the US and her military. As Franklin intimated, it would concern me if Putin were "loose" in my neighborhood, as for the fascist title being bandied about by pro Russian media outlets= "what better narrative to give credence to the Russian take-over of Crimea and the Eastern Ukraine", but that's only my ill informed "Western perspective", but then I fly my colors for all to see and don't put up any false loyalties, sad to say, and when the US "steps in it", I call that a foul. I am quite thankful that the BBC does attempt to keep it real!

Jura said:

SampanViking, I think you're moving too fast. It normally takes weeks to investigate complex chains of events as happened in Odessa yesterday.
I apologize if you got offended by my post (#1268 here)!

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Fair point and no I am never offended by far criticism. You are right if you want to know who said and ordered what, but tt would make the forum a pretty slow place if we had to wait for the definitive answers before we discussed.

Some things are available straight away, thanks mainly to modern social media and of course the plethora of news channels.

1) Turchynov specifically identifies Odessa as a target to stop Pro Federalists only two days before the event.

2) Hardcore football hooligans from the fans of both sides of a football match Chernomorets and Metalic Kharkov march together with other Pro Maidan supporters including Right Sector militants!

This is weird by itself as opposing hooligans usually are too busy taking lumps out of each other, to band together.
In addition, as a member of the UK generation that grew up while Ulster was in the deepest throes of the troubles, I have no doubt about the significance of "marches" in areas of sectarian division.

3) The far smaller Pro-Russian gathering is referred to consistently as a rally. This means people meeting at a fixed point, and there is no mention of any march involved in their activities.

4) The presence of a leading Pro-Russian local politician and Mayoral candidate.
With across the board elections due in less than four weeks, the assumption that the rally is an election rally for this local leader and candidate is hardly a leap of deduction. This is only compounded by the location and its significance as you yourself pointed out today.

5) The Pro Maidan marchers made their way from the where they started and came to where the rally was taking place.
Given that the rally did not include a march, but was taking place in a single location means that there is no other possible explanation for the two groups coming into contact with each other.
There have been reports of clashes with the Pro Maidan marchers before they arrived at the rally. This again is no surprise if they were marching by or through strongly pro Russian neighbourhoods en-route. This sort of thing will always cause trouble during times of sectarian tension and such problems persist each year to this very day, over Loyalist marches through Republican areas of Belfast.
This ignores the notion of a small group attacking a another group that was ten times there size. That is a greater willing suspension of disbelief than I am prepared to give

6) Ukrainian politics are a rich man's game, especially at regional level or mayoral level for a major city and regional Capital. Albu will then be a wealthy man and if joined by more senior party bigwigs, they would be very wealthy men as well. Such men in Ukraine will have bodyguards and these bodyguards will be armed.
This to me is the obvious explanation for how some Pro Maidan marchers were shot and killed when the rioting started as these body guards will have no qualms over using deadly force if their employers are in danger. Also, lets be honest, if you want to stop a movement spreading into your city, leadership decapitation is a good option and hiding it in a riot at a political rally as good a way of doing it as I can think of.
Further of course, had this been a militant rally of little green men with Kalashnikovs that came under attack, then there would have been far more fatalities and mostly form the Pro-Maidan side.

7) The VIP's and the rally supporters fell back from the square to the assumed protection of the Trade Unions House to escape the riot. We all know what happened next and Mr Albu could easily have been a victim in the fire.

So we may not know who said what to who and why certain things happened etc, but I am confident that the above is the general gist of the events based by what is already in the public domain. Once again, I would welcome any further information; supporting or detracting, if anyone has it.

On top of the Odessa atrocity, there is the continuing confusion in the East, with military operations seemingly trying to isolate Slavyansk by taking back the smaller towns which surround it.

There has been Ukrainian army activity in Kramatorsk, but it is very unclear as to what actually has happened or what has been achieved.

It is not clear if rebel occupied public buildings have been recaptured

It is not clear if the rebels defended the buildings

It is not clear if the Ukrainian army is occupying them with its own forces.

The impression given is that the army rolled in and made a lot of noise, they entered some previously rebel occupied buildings and then left. RT is reporting significant casualties but these figures are not being quoted elsewhere and Rt themselves have not provided material evidence to support their claims.

It does look as though the rebels have played straight out of the insurgency play book and simply melted back to their homes while the army is in town. Can we suppose that as soon as the army moves on, that the rebels will reassemble back at the buildings and recommence occupation?

Basic fog of War, No one has a clue what is happening on the ground out side of there Sphere of observatiion and even that is in Doubt.

SampanViking said:

Fair point and no I am never offended by far criticism.

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you took it well, which is good for me, as you could've banned me

SampanViking said:

You are right if you want to know who said and ordered what, but tt would make the forum a pretty slow place if we had to wait for the definitive answers before we discussed.

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I'm not going to argue any of your points related to the May 2nd Odessa events, because only facts may be presented in this thread -- if I understood correctly the MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS given by Jeff yesterday -- and I don't have facts which wouldn't be disputed by the other side of the conflict (maybe except of the body count: 46), despite spending several hours of yesterday by going over Ukrainian and Russian servers (and some European, which regurgitated). And besides, I don't know much about Ukraine http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/mem...s-views-photos-videos-85-6796.html#post280263

But wait, there's one thing:

SampanViking said:

... This again is no surprise if they were marching by or through strongly pro Russian neighbourhoods en-route. This sort of thing will always cause trouble during times of sectarian tension and such problems persist each year to this very day, over Loyalist marches through Republican areas of Belfast.
...

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I regularly go to some pub where a guy, who is Czech/Russian, also comes and he's been to Odessa so I ask him (most probably tomorrow) if there's such a thing as "Russian/Ukrainians neighborhood" there, let you know.

Jura said:

you took it well, which is good for me, as you could've banned me



I'm not going to argue any of your points related to the May 2nd Odessa events, because only facts may be presented in this thread -- if I understood correctly the MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS given by Jeff yesterday -- and I don't have facts which wouldn't be disputed by the other side of the conflict (maybe except of the body count: 46), despite spending several hours of yesterday by going over Ukrainian and Russian servers (and some European, which regurgitated). And besides, I don't know much about Ukraine http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/mem...s-views-photos-videos-85-6796.html#post280263

But wait, there's one thing:


I regularly go to some pub where a guy, who is Czech/Russian, also comes and he's been to Odessa so I ask him (most probably tomorrow) if there's such a thing as "Russian/Ukrainians neighborhood" there, let you know.

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I agree about the Odessa incident, there is just lots going on, and I can't wait to hear your Russian friends perspective on the circumstances, thanks for giving us your incite, it is deeply appreciated. brat