asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
No they do not
a SSN sole job is to remain undetected and operated fully independently without any support
09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
- Start date
No they do not
a SSN sole job is to remain undetected and operated fully independently without any support
PLAN's sub operation at the moment is for access denial. SSKs are far more useful than SSNs because PLAN can acquire more and get them faster for more or less equal ability if they are going to be used as parked listening outposts to target carriers in the SCS. SSKs are close to undetectable by conventional methods when they are just parked in silence, camping and waiting for juicy targets to float past. Of course all of this is used in coordination with surface and air assets. Using a large expensive SSN in that strategy would be a little more wasteful because they don't add all that much more ability if PLAN isn't going to use them in deep waters shadowing USN. PLAN doesn't yet have that level of ability and SSNs by itself out in the open, if detected during wartime, is as good as dead.
This doesn't mean China should stop SSN development altogether, but rather only order in small batches of incremental improvements and new generations. I doubt we'll see PLAN with large fleets of SSNs anytime soon, although this is where they need to be eventually. SSBNs are a different issue and purely a matter of retaliatory strike, guaranteeing mutually assured destruction.
This doesn't mean China should stop SSN development altogether, but rather only order in small batches of incremental improvements and new generations. I doubt we'll see PLAN with large fleets of SSNs anytime soon, although this is where they need to be eventually. SSBNs are a different issue and purely a matter of retaliatory strike, guaranteeing mutually assured destruction.
D
Deleted member 13312
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A bit of an editing problem on my part, that sentence belonged to the earlier poster. My stance on the matter is entirely the opposite.
... what
Same generation SSKs are considered quieter than same generation SSNs due to less moving components. That alone is a major advantage that can’t be duplicated by the SSN.
It wasn’t a PLAN SSN that went undetected inside an USN battlegroup (likely including at least 1 Virginia or Seawolf in addition to other vessels)
It wasn’t an european SSN that managed to simulate strikes on USN ships so many times that US resorted to buy one in order to practice against it.
SSNs can quickly bring firepower to bear to the other side of the world and carry more torpedoes and missiles than SSKs. But in a hunter killer scenario where the sub is already within range of it’s target, quietness is the decisive factor.
Between a submarine which can remain undetected by an entire carrier group and a submarine that can’t find the former submarine despite having the assistance of a whole carrier group, I know which one I’d rather be on board in a war.
Your cult of quietness(and centring whole submarine combat to a single incomplete metric) already starts to bring mutually excluding results.
The quietest "killer" in asw warfare isn't a manned submarine to begin with, it's advanced mines with contained torpedoes.
But they are neither uncounterable nor they are the deadliest things below the surface.
Quietness(at which speed?) is important, but so are acoustics and non-acoustic detection, so are the specs and amount of the weapon system(both torpedo and asroc), so are different countermeasures, so is the agility underwater and so many more.
Most of these metrics are immensely affected by energy supply, all of them - by the very size of the boat. Including many acoustic emmisions, btw.
Non-nuclear subs are somewhat quieter(at least untill the batteries dry out, because afterwards we rechaaaarge them) and can be made smaller, cheaper and faster? Sure, but that is (almost) it.
New australian boats are especially cute here, taking the worst from both worlds. At least they are Eco-friendly, though!(diesel, lol)
The quietest "killer" in asw warfare isn't a manned submarine to begin with, it's advanced mines with contained torpedoes.
But they are neither uncounterable nor they are the deadliest things below the surface.
Quietness(at which speed?) is important, but so are acoustics and non-acoustic detection, so are the specs and amount of the weapon system(both torpedo and asroc), so are different countermeasures, so is the agility underwater and so many more.
Most of these metrics are immensely affected by energy supply, all of them - by the very size of the boat. Including many acoustic emmisions, btw.
Non-nuclear subs are somewhat quieter(at least untill the batteries dry out, because afterwards we rechaaaarge them) and can be made smaller, cheaper and faster? Sure, but that is (almost) it.
New australian boats are especially cute here, taking the worst from both worlds. At least they are Eco-friendly, though!(diesel, lol)
@Gloire_bb
Perfect submarines don’t exist, there is always some sort of trade off.
For the PLAN, a trade off in range and ammo is worth it if it makes the submarine quieter. Every navy has different strategies and different rivals. The reality of Asia is that it has many highly sophisticated submarines in it along with powerful ASW systems.
Because of the relatively short distance to the mainland from west pacific and any of the China seas, ammo is a relatively small concern. Also PLAN submarines would mainly be deployed to hunt enemy submarines and carriers in wartime, not for shore bombardment or merchant ship hunting. Therefore, the total # of weapons carried is less important.
Perfect submarines don’t exist, there is always some sort of trade off.
For the PLAN, a trade off in range and ammo is worth it if it makes the submarine quieter. Every navy has different strategies and different rivals. The reality of Asia is that it has many highly sophisticated submarines in it along with powerful ASW systems.
Because of the relatively short distance to the mainland from west pacific and any of the China seas, ammo is a relatively small concern. Also PLAN submarines would mainly be deployed to hunt enemy submarines and carriers in wartime, not for shore bombardment or merchant ship hunting. Therefore, the total # of weapons carried is less important.
Because you know better than PLAN and Royal Australian Navy decision makers?
SSKs offer abilities "advanced mines with contained torpedoes" do not. So why do you bother comparing the two? We are saying SSKs have certain uses particularly in regards to defending regional waters where they DO NOT need to have nuclear power ranges. They are more effective in this role than SSNs so there is no discussion about the quietest killed for ASW.
Non-nuclear are indeed quieter when the batteries are charged. That's all there is to it. Of course no one is denying the unique abilities and advantages of SSNs here.
Oh, believe me, they do.
Not like either of them have a choice.
You do understand what PLAN submarines are anything but small "defensive" boats(as is their progenitor, Kilo-class)? Unless your definition of "defending" extends to cutting traffic beyond second island chain, which is a certain...stretch of the defense.
Then you haven't even seen the post i am replying to.
Obviously there was/is a choice because the 041s are very silent but the 093s aren’t, indicating where most money and effort ended up. Just like US diesel electrics have horrendous performance but their nuclear submarines are good.
Australia is entirely different. They are largely constrained by what others will sell them.
I don’t really understand your second paragraph but the Yuans are a class of their own, as is the preceding Song class. The main goal of these boats are to hunt enemy submarines and high value surface ships within the Asia region, where staying undetectable is more important than long range or carrying many torps & missiles.
However I do believe PLAN is bringing back SSN into their roster. Because of carriers. Yuans won’t be able to keep up well with a carrier group. If PLAN is going to deploy a fleet at Indian Ocean and/or outside Africa, an updated SSN would be necessary.
antiterror13
Brigadier
in your opinion, how silent Yuan is compare to other best SSK types in the world ?