075 LHD thread

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
There are no tree tops to hide in the sea. Its completely open, flat and sits low compared to land. So, its totally exposed. So, how would the same tactic of flying low work when those helicopter must fly from the sea into land?
There are no sneaky undetectable MANPADS and machine guns either. And water level(h=0) allows for very predictable visibility for mission planners.
In the same conflict, Ukrainian helicopters flying to Mariupol did their last leg of the mission over the sea ... and IIRC either 1 or zero were actually shot down underwater. This is no average "coast" - because, unlike the normal helicopter missions - planners had no opportunity to choose an undefended/weak entry point. They flew into the literal den, and still were making it ... more often than not.


Russian helicopters flying to Hostomel flew over Kiev sea - large water of body, serving a nearly perfect example of how such mission may look like.

The whole pack(several dozens of helicopters) crossed the shoreline at the cost of 1 escort helicopter - and even that one was the unlucky older type, without modern jammers installed. Other missiles(dozens of them) were jammed/spoofed.

easy targets for Air Defense missiles to shoot down.
That's what you have a fleet for. ;-)
 

lcloo

Captain
In today's scenario it is extremely hard to have a WW2 type of surprise attack on beach fronts due to satellite and radar coverage. We will not be seeing WW2 style beach assaults where LST, LCU will rush head on into the fire of the beach defense, and this applies to the helicopters from type 075 LHD.

A commander of normal rational mind would first soften the beach defense before sending out LCAC, helicopters, assailt boats and swimming tanks. And days or weeks before the beach assault, an infiltration team (may be launched from a submarine) would have made a recon and marked all important defense points near the beaches to be destroyed later. They may also be tasked to sabotage telecommunication and power lines on the day the beach assault started.

Softening the beach defense can last several hours by continuous attack from ships near Mainland coasts as well as rockets and missiles from Mainland shore. At the same time, guided glide bombs and cruise missiles will be deployed to destroy as much as they can, of the island's air defense (including air bases and radars) , navy ships and fire support for the beach defense.

The actual beach assaults probably will be commenced by swarm drones and suicide drones to wipe out tanks, heavy guns, guided missile positions as well as to deplete manpad inventory of the beach defense troops. Attack helicopters from type 075 will follow up and do the mop up attack on what has not been destroyed on the beach.

Swarm drones and suicide drones may be launched from type 075, and type 076 (if 076 are built in time for the war).

When the beach defense is deem to be sufficiently weakened, troop carrying helicopters, LCAC and others will be launched towards the beach. There will be some manpads and ATGM that survived PLA's bombarment and may shoot down some helicopters and sink some LCAC, but that is acceptable losses if the beach front can be captured and expand quickly towards inland areas.

Therefore, to say type 075 and type 071 are obsolete for beach assault is flawed. Type 075 is an important piece of the beach assault asset, and its attack helicopters and transport helicopters are essential for a quick landing on beaches (after the heavy bombardment).

Type 075 is one of the many platforms in beach assault plan, we shall expect the plan will involve assets from air, sea, space, undersea, cyber space and even pro-China unification forces from within the island. Every one of these platforms have their roles to play.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I see value in the 071 as a much cheaper platform to deploy troops and tanks via boats and LCAC. Not for helicopter assaults.

And I have been arguing that deploying Helicopters from the sea against land is obsolete. Because unlike land, where Helicopters can hide from Air Defenses using Trees and Hills, there is nowhere to hide in the sea. The Sea is flat, open and actually sit low compared to land. So, how can helicopters hide?

Helicopter flying from the sea can't hide, they can't fly fast and thus they are easy targets for Air Defense missiles to shoot down.

Tanks of course are still useful because they are operating on land and can hide inside terrain easily. Sea is a unique environment that makes hiding impossible. Unless you go underwater.

Helicopters flying from sea to land will have natural terrain to hide from after they get inland from the beach.

Air defenses on or in proximity to the beach are intended to be adequately suppressed by supporting joint forces to minimize losses and enable the helicopters to achieve their mission.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Before anyone comments on amphibious doctrine it is proper to learn something about its development and purpose. Fort Leavenworth has a great series on military history that is available publicly that I strongly recommend:


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The concept of beach landings was developed in the interwar period to avoid costly and risky capture of enemy port facilities which was the traditional mode of amphibious operations. The development of landing ships came out of this doctrinal shift.

The purpose of beach landing was to avoid opposed landings.

1. The most important rule of amphibious operations is: never conduct an opposed landing.

The goal of a landing is to deploy the landing force in such place and at such time so as to enable fastest possible exit from the landing zone. An opposed landing is the worst case scenario that may prevent exiting the landing zone indefinitely.

2. The most vulnerable position for a landing force is: on the beach during landing.

During an opposed landing the landing force is constrained on all sides. Behind is water preventing retreat. In front are enemy positions. To each side are narrow gaps that may or may not be used for flanking. The beach itself is a flat open space and the ground is sand, rocks or mud that makes maneuver hard or impossible. It is assumed that on the beach the landing force is static. There is no maneuver until the landing force leaves the beach.

3. The most destructive weapon in terms of inflicting casualties on the battlefield is: artillery.

A landing force stopped at the beach is a static soft target for concentrated artillery fire. Unlike the defending force the landing force doesn't have prepared defensive positions e.g. trenches, and the beach is an open flat space that is an ideal target for both contact and airburst munitions. Any casualties taken during the landing delay the exit. Any disruptions during the landing delay the exit. Any delay to the exit from the landing zone means exposure to concentrated artillery fire.

Specifically to avoid all these problems the doctrine of aerial insertion behind potential enemy lines and away from the beach was developed as soon as means of aerial insertion via helicopter became possible.

Aerial insertion secures the landing zone by establishing a secure perimeter and taking control of main lines of communication to facilitate the fastes possible exit from the landing zone.

The first purpose-built ship with a full deck was USS Iwo Jima designated as Landing Platform Helicopter. USS Iwo Jima was laid down in 1959 and commissioned in 1961. It had full displacement of 18 474 tonnes and operated up to 25 UH-1, H-34 and later CH-46 helicopters.

USS_Iwo_Jima_%28LPH-2%29_aft.jpg


The dock was added in Tarawa-class first commissioned in 1973. Tarawa had full displacement of 40 thousand tonnes and operated up to 45 helicopters typically CH-53 and CH-46.

800px-Amphibious_assault_ship_USS_Belleau_Wood_%28July_7_2004%29.jpg


The full aviation deck operating multiple helicopters was the intended primary capability.

The dock came as complementary secondary capability after Iwo Jima demonstrated the viability of dual facilities in a ship of sufficient size. Iwo Jima was the experimental class that was used to develop doctrine, tactics and procedure. During that process it was realised that a larger ship with dock facilities doesn't hamper helicopter operations and adds flexibility.

If hulls is cheap, build a bigger ship.

Compared to all other elements of the ship the volume in the hull is the cheapest and easiest way of increasing capabilities. It improves seaworthiness, stability and usefulness of a ship. The only scenario where bigger is not better is when ports or other infrastructure prevents a certain size.

With the development of heavy helicopters it became possible to conduct assault with helicopters alone and use watercraft to deliver heavy vehicles and heavy cargo.

Currently the USMC has shifted to aerial insertion to such extent that almost the entirety of assault operations are conducted via aerial insertion. It is therefore an airborne assault formation with amphibious logistical delivery.

That's because amphibious landings are inconvenient, risky and unpredictable.

Factors such as change in sea state can easily disrupt the timetable of operations. Seas have local tides and poor recon can cause landing craft to run aground away from the beech which may often prevent the troops and vehicles from disembarking altogether. Etc etc.

When a unit moves on land it can take defensive position or counter-attack. When a unit is being transported via aircraft it moves fast and can change its landing or deployment zone. When a unit is being transported via watercraft it is moving slowly in a vulnerable state in a hostile environment until it leaves the beach and it can only land on the beach.

Airborne assault has an entire area to choose from. Shipborne assault can only take you as far as the shoreline and the beach.

The reason why amphibious landings are still conducted is because there is a hard limit on the mass that can be carried by aircraft. But there is a reason why the French Navy which operates three 21,5 thousand tonne Mistral-class LHDs has only four EDA-R landing craft with the rest being 10 knot LCMs?. That is because aerial insertion is the preferred method of delivery of force to the landing zone. There is no waterborne insertion unless the landing zone is secured by a prior airborne assault. Fast landing craft are helpful but not necessary.

I see value in the 071 as a much cheaper platform to deploy troops and tanks via boats and LCAC. Not for helicopter assaults.

Type 071 is not an amphibious assault ship but an amphibious landing ship.

The primary role of Type 071 is transport. It does not deploy "troops and tanks" but payload. In majority of instances it will be supplies. In majority of instances landing operations will be resupply operations or transport operations where troops will be deployed to take control of territory via an improvised landing zone.

The purpose of landing ships is delivering payload to improvised landing zones regardless of whether they constitute a combat zone or not.

"Amphibious" means "no port" and not "combat". The latter distinction is the "assault" and "landing" part.

Any amphibious operation is a logistical operation first. An amphibious landing operation is a logistical operation. An amphibious assault operation is a logistical and combat operation.

Can anyone elaborate how Type-075 or helicopter carriers in general be used for Anti-Submarine Warfare?

They are large floating helipads. At high sea states helicopter operations are impossible from smaller vessels. That's all. Anti-submarine operations are not helicopter operations. They are combined operations where helicopters play a specific and important but narrow role. Helicopters alone are insufficient for ASW. Typically they complement a towed array or a patrol aircraft buoy network.

Hyuga is not a "helicopter carrier" but an anti-submarine ship with additional missions e.g. command ship. It has a large bow sonar OQQ-21 with flank arrays.

ddh-hyuga-line1.gif


Anti-submarine warfare ships must have reduced acoustic signature and are designed with additional silencing measures which are costly. Amphibious warfare ships are simple ships without silencing.

Hyuga has only four landing spots on aviation deck:

800px-DDH-181_%E3%81%B2%E3%82%85%E3%81%86%E3%81%8C_%2812%29.jpg


Mistral has six:

800px-BPC_Dixmude.jpg


Hyuga has top speed of 30 knots Mistral has top speed of 19 knots. Wasp-class has top speed of 22 knots.

Izumo was designed from the outset with future conversion to STOVL in mind.

In conclusion:

Type 075 is an amphibious assault ship for airborne insertion because that's what works best under current battlefield conditions.

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Hopefully this will solve the problem of people who strongly want to argue the corectness of their opinion but refuse to conduct prior basic research into the subject despite plentiful data being available. Please don't do it. You're wasting everyone's time - including your own.

As wise master Sun once said: Less typing. More reading. No problems.
 

by78

General
Hainan has a digital touchscreen ouija board for flight deck control. The model helicopters appear to activate touch manuals when they're placed on the board. Also note each model helicopter has a number dial on its base, which might be used to displays the tail number.

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The ship's bridge and radio room.

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YES

New Member
Registered Member
I see value in the 071 as a much cheaper platform to deploy troops and tanks via boats and LCAC. Not for helicopter assaults.

And I have been arguing that deploying Helicopters from the sea against land is obsolete. Because unlike land, where Helicopters can hide from Air Defenses using Trees and Hills, there is nowhere to hide in the sea. The Sea is flat, open and actually sit low compared to land. So, how can helicopters hide?

Helicopter flying from the sea can't hide, they can't fly fast and thus they are easy targets for Air Defense missiles to shoot down.

Tanks of course are still useful because they are operating on land and can hide inside terrain easily. Sea is a unique environment that makes hiding impossible. Unless you go underwater.
I think you're a bit overestimating the ability of MANPADS, it's more used in shooting down targets with smaller velocity and only rarely to assist higher class AA units with their missed targets, most of them have a maximum range of 5km, where their upper class AA device has about 15-20km (hq17 and sa15 for example) and the most common ASM adopted by the Chinese helicopter akd10 has a range of 7km, of course, war is not only a comparison of numbers, as other members said above, the systemic aa system should be destroyed before the helicopter sents in, and the rest casualties should be in a acceptable range, unless something went wrong in the last process, I'm not sure about the exact number of killing needed before putting the aa system stop to work, nor the exact density of air assault units needed to overwhelm a given area tho, but I'm pretty sure either the rus-ukr war or the arab israeli War can enlight you in that.
 
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