I totally agree. I was concerned they would chop up the flight deck. But it is magnificent.
It is clear they are creating original designs. This is good for naval architecture history.
075 LHD thread
- Thread starter nosh
- Start date
I totally agree. I was concerned they would chop up the flight deck. But it is magnificent.
It is clear they are creating original designs. This is good for naval architecture history.
Neutral Zone
Junior Member
On the supposed VLS silos, there’s little point putting LACM’s or ASW missiles on an amphib, an 075 will be part of a group with 052’s, 054’s and possibly an 055. They’ll handle the area air defence, ASW screening and any strike missions. The LHD just needs inner layer weapons to deal with anything that gets through the outer screen.
This rationale is highly dubious. It seems extremely unlikely they would "wait" so long for this system without first putting in an existing system like the HHQ-16 which the PLAN seems to like just fine, had they wished for their carriers to be protected by a medium-ranged air defense missile. At worst they could have just saved space for this hypothetical new MRSAM system, but clearly CV-16 has the area paved over, and CV-17 doesn't even have such a space designed in at all. It is an unequivocal fact that the PLAN does NOT want an integrated medium-ranged air defense system for its carriers. Which leaves the possibility that they want such a level of protection for their lesser-value LHDs even less likely.
As for ASW missiles, the next best military mission for an LHD besides amphibious assault is ASW. This is a quite natural extension of the fact that it has the capacity for so many helicopters. Using escorts with TAS/VDS and/or dedicated ships with SURTASS-equivalents, an LHD with a large complement of ASW helos would be the premier ASW warship in the PLAN and a perfect escort for a carrier strike force when ASW is paramount, such as a confrontation against the USN on the high seas. It would function like the Hyuga/Izumo class, but even better. That new long range ASW missile with wings would be a prime candidate for loading into an LHD tasked with ASW.
As for LACMs, to say it's "unprecedented" is to not look at it the right way, since how many LHDs have VLS complexes that also have SRSAMs? None. The one or two that I can think of off hand that use VLS use them for air defense because they don't have SeaRAM or another equivalent SRSAM. So if a new PLAN LHD class does have a VLS along with the HHQ-10, all possibilities are on the table, including land attack, and medium-ranged air defense becomes much less likely. This makes sense, since shore and inland targets may need to be softened up before a landing, and bringing in organic longer-ranged land attack capabilities may be a good option in some or many cases.
That is assuming at the time that they desired an MR SAM for CV-16 or 002 at the time at all.
My suggestion is that a new MR SAM system was finishing development and able to coincide with 075's design and construction timetable they decided to include it.
In this rationale, it is not so much that CV-16 and 002 "lack" an MR SAM capability when they were being overhauled and constructed respectively, but rather that 075 receives it as an "extra" because a new system completed development and would have been ready around the same time as it would've started construction.
Going forwards, it would mean that new construction ships like 003 would also be expected to have a VLS for the MR SAM because 003 would have also been drawn up and constructed when the new MR SAM was ready. CV-16 and 002 would eventually receive structural overhauls to accommodate a VLS for the MR SAM if it was feasible. But if it was not feasible or practical then they would simply continue with their existing weapons fit.
That said I'm not convinced 075 has a VLS yet, so the above is just discussion for a hypothetical for if it was present.
I think ASW missiles are certainly much more likely than LACMs, and I can see 075 having an ASW role.
That said the 075 won't have the speed to keep up with carrier battle groups so I don't see them providing an ASW role for a CSG, but for various other mission profiles when appropriate, sure.
A case can certainly be made for giving LHDs an organic land attack capability, and I'm definitely not ruling it out as a possibility.
However I think it is far from the most likely payload for a VLS on 075 if there is a VLS, because giving amphibious assault ships like LHDs an organic in built land attack capability would be quite a deviation from worldwide norms and it means 075 would be the first of its kind in that regard.
Of course, if there were rumours that 075 was designed with VLS and intended to have organic LACMs as its payload then that would be an entirely different story.
lcloo
Captain
LACM and MR SAM on an amphibious assault ship is very much in line with ex-Soviet doctrine as in their aircraft cruisers built in 1980s, I doubt China will follow the ex-Soviets. Current PLAN doctrine is moving towards that of Western and US Navy in many ways like ship design and weapon configuration.
IMO, type 075 would be fitted with self-defence weapons rather than offensive weapons. It would be similar to aircraft carrier 002 with close in weapons for anti-missiles guns, short range anti-missile missiles, anti-torpedoes rockets, chaff and decoys and anti-frogmen projectiles.
What kind of result is expected by launching very small number of LACM from a large amphibious ships vs a large number of LACMs from destroyers and submarines (as demonstrated by US Navy in Middle East) ? And using type 075 for such mission is risky as it represent a large and slow marine target if the opponent is capable of retaliation using long range missiles and aircraft.
IMO, type 075 would be fitted with self-defence weapons rather than offensive weapons. It would be similar to aircraft carrier 002 with close in weapons for anti-missiles guns, short range anti-missile missiles, anti-torpedoes rockets, chaff and decoys and anti-frogmen projectiles.
What kind of result is expected by launching very small number of LACM from a large amphibious ships vs a large number of LACMs from destroyers and submarines (as demonstrated by US Navy in Middle East) ? And using type 075 for such mission is risky as it represent a large and slow marine target if the opponent is capable of retaliation using long range missiles and aircraft.
Actually, it IS so much that CV-16 and CV-17 intentionally "lack" an MRSAM capability. The HHQ-16 is living proof that they intentionally lack an MRSAM capability. The paved-over sponsons on the CV-16 and the complete lack of designed space for VLS on the CV-17 is living proof that they intentionally lack an MRSAM capability. It is blatantly obvious that organic medium range air defense is NOT a PLAN priority for its carriers. By implication, neither would it be a priority for its LHDs.
Anything low to mid 20's would be sufficient to keep up with a carrier group, since these are the speeds of the T-AOE and Type 901 fast combat support ships, which are designed to keep up with carrier groups.
There are no "norms" to speak of for VLS on LHDs. You seem to suggest there is some kind of standard loadout for VLS on LHDs when there are almost no LHDs with VLS in the first place. How can there be any kind of "norm"? What norm are you referring to? In fact the only LHD I could find with a VLS on it is the San Giorgio mini-LHD (at 8,000t full load), which has an 8-cell Sylver VLS for Aster missiles, with no other form of air defense, not even CIWS. At 8,000t full load, it's not really even an LHD. If the 075 has a VLS but has no HHQ-10 and no Type 1130, then yeah, I would guess that VLS module is going to house some air defense missiles. If it does have both, as we all expect, AND it also has a VLS, then no, I seriously doubt that VLS is going to be loading any MRSAMs, and we are looking at offensive land attack and ASW capabilities.
There is no doubt that the Type 075 will be fitted with self-defense weapons, almost certainly in the form of HHQ-10 and Type 1130, and likely multiple copies of each. This is not being debated. What is being debated, is if in addition to these self-defense weapons, there appears a VLS module (or two) on the Type 075, what weapons would it load? Nobody is seriously suggesting ASCMs, ASBMs or anything else in the anti-shipping realm. I have been arguing that VLS-based air defense in the face of pre-existing air defense assets like the HHQ-10 and the Type 1130 would not be a reasonable conclusion. That leaves ASW and land attack, either of which are well-suited to an LHD.
The current ships in the PLAN inventory, exclusive of (presumably) the Type 055, do not typically load LACMs. The Type 052D is the only possible contender for a few LACMs, but far more likely its limited loadout would be the traditional mix of LRSAM, ASCM, and ASW missiles, something along the lines of 48+8+8=64. If there is a new quad-packable MRSAM, there is far greater likelihood a 052D would sub out some of its missiles for such an MRSAM than for a LACM. PLAN subs AFAIK don't carry LACMs, including their Kilos. IIRC the Klub the Russians sold to China was the ASCM version. In other words, the only LACM capability a PLAN ARG brings with it will whatever is loaded in the 055, assuming a 055 is even assigned to a PLAN ARG in the first place, and this is certainly not a guarantee. Given the force structure of the PLAN, a PLAN ARG would not bring with it any real LACM capability, and any ship that can enhance an ARG's land attack capability would be a significant addition. And note that the PLAN wouldn't be using the Type 075 for some random land attack "mission". Land attack would be prosecuted by a Type 075 for the narrow purpose of facilitating an amphibious assault that that specific Type 075 would subsequently be participating in. As for "retaliation" by opponents, I would assume an amphibious invasion (even an OTH attack) makes an LHD far more vulnerable to attack than performing land attack from hundreds to 1,000+km away.
I don’t believe it would carry LACM. IIRC only the taller VLS on the 052s and 055s can field LACM, and the VLS in carrier ships are typically of the shorter self defense variant.
Given that the 075 doesn’t enjoy the same world leading radar strength as the 052s and 055s, another set of AAMs could be redundant unless they network with nearby 052s or 055s to illuminate targets, which is quite possible. However, since the 075 is geared towards ASW, it’s more likely that the VLS will be for ASW missiles.
Given that the 075 doesn’t enjoy the same world leading radar strength as the 052s and 055s, another set of AAMs could be redundant unless they network with nearby 052s or 055s to illuminate targets, which is quite possible. However, since the 075 is geared towards ASW, it’s more likely that the VLS will be for ASW missiles.
Or, the HHQ-16 system they had prior was not considered practical for carriers (either due to VLS size or guidance or a combination of them or other factors), and they was a more compact MR SAM capability being developed that was appropriate for integration into a new class of ship being built but wasn't ready for 002 or Liaoning.
There are a small number of VLS equipped large deck flattops in the form of Hyuga, Charles De Gaulle and one of the San Giorgo ships, which are equipped with VLS.
For the Hyuga the Mk-41 VLS is loaded with ESSM and a VLA weapon; for CdG and San Giorgo the Sylver VLS is of course equipped with Aster.
As for "norm" -- I am talking not only about VLS on LHDs but rather giving large amphibious assault ships an organic long range land attack capability.
That is to say -- it is rather outside the norm for large amphibious assault ships to have their own organic land attack capability.
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