056 class FFL/corvette

Mysterre said:

No, you said I believed that putting a TAS on the 056 was somehow impractical, as in not feasible.

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Where did I specifically say "not feasible"? Oh you mean you assumed I said it. You know what they say about assuming. Let me guess, you're gonna rebuttal this one too for your Pyrrhic victory of having the last word right? Enjoy, my future replies on this thread will go back to the topic, not some silly need to feel out debating over pointless issues.

joshuatree said:

Where did I specifically say "not feasible"? Oh you mean you assumed I said it. You know what they say about assuming. Let me guess, you're gonna rebuttal this one too for your Pyrrhic victory of having the last word right? Enjoy, my future replies on this thread will go back to the topic, not some silly need to feel out debating over pointless issues.

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You specifically said that I thought it was "impractical", by which you meant "not feasible". This isn't rocket science, and I'm simply responding to you accusing me of something which I never said. And there is absolutely no need to achieve a "Pyrrhic" victory in this case. Problem?

So what will this ship going to replace? And will it be build as fast as Type-022s.

The two torpedo openings to the landing pad do have curtain doors, but the passage way between the wall and the launchers is not wide enough to cart around torpedoes to rearm ASW helicopters. Having said that, I firmly believe the ship's design has the potential to be upgraded with a fixed hangar, I wouldn't be surprised if it was designed specifically to have two variants, and we are just seeing the basic model, kinda like the Sigma 9113.

hmmwv said:

The two torpedo openings to the landing pad do have curtain doors, but the passage way between the wall and the launchers is not wide enough to cart around torpedoes to rearm ASW helicopters. Having said that, I firmly believe the ship's design has the potential to be upgraded with a fixed hangar, I wouldn't be surprised if it was designed specifically to have two variants, and we are just seeing the basic model, kinda like the Sigma 9113.

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I find it fascinating that you would disagree so vehemently with me when I said the 052C could be retooled to have a second hangar but yet feel so confident that this little ship of 1/6th or 1/7th the size of the 052C could be retooled to have even one hangar. Perhaps you can reconcile this inconsistency for me.

As much as this is deducing into a pissing match and before the fat pilot have to step in to sort things out, let's get back to REAL topic...

Now here's a news article from China:

中广网北京6月29日消息（吕锡成 李华敏 通讯员余岱）1997年7月1日零时，中国人民解放军驻香港部队陆海空三军官兵在滂沱大雨中，进驻香港，开始履行防务、行使主权。15年来，一茬茬驻港部队官兵置身于特殊的驻防环境，特别讲政治、高度重使命、严格守法纪、开拓创一流。岁月悠悠，整整15年时间过去了，驻港部队的训练、工作和生活方面发生了怎样的变化？他们的武器装备和战斗力建设又取得了什么样的进展？接下来请听记者吕锡成、李华敏、通讯员余岱民采制的录音报道：《喜看驻港部队新变化》。
　　这是驻香港部队前不久举行的一次实战条件下的通信演练。记者在演练现场看到，驻香港部队的信息保障手段已经由组建初期的单一保障方式，发展为现在的“六网四系统”多种通信保障方式，光缆网、光纤通信传送网等完善的现代通信网络，让驻港部队的一体化指挥平台“耳聪目明”，各种先进的通信手段，使驻军的作战能力得到全面提升。
　　驻港部队通信团政委陈文献：刚进港的时候，装备相对是比较落后的，包括一些无线设备。因为香港它是属于滨海的高山地区，很多的通讯设备进来以后，有的时候使用的并不是很好，经常会有些阻断，通信的容量也很小。但是，经过了这十几年的发展，军委总部对我们驻港部队建设也特别关心。所以信息化装备配发以后，能够得到很好地运用，信息作战的能力得到进一步提升。部队的作战指挥，部队日常的通信保障，也包括官兵的生活，都因为信息化的建设，受到了很大便利。现在，我们官兵除了不能上国际互联网以外，可以上全军的综合信息网，驻军的综合信息网。刚进港的时候，跟家人联络很难，随着光缆的建成，官兵打电话容易了。如果想家了，可以随时地跟家人沟通。现在可以说，一旦有什么情况，我们能够随时完成通信保障任务，确保指挥顺畅。
　　驻港部队在通信指挥能力方面确实有了大幅提升，海军建设的发展更是让人刮目相看。驻港部队海军舰艇大队大队长冯尚连在接受采访记者采访时说：
　　在部队战斗力建设这方面，变化比较明显的是从2008年到现在，这五年。第一是装备的变化。这几年，我们舰艇部队对武器装备、通讯器材、导航设备这三方面，进行了一个更新换代。第二，从今年开始，我们舰艇大队要列装两艘轻型护卫舰。在此之前，我们的主战舰艇就是导弹护卫艇和巡逻艇，我们计划在“十二五”末，驻港大队的所有的舰艇全部换装新的。随着新装备的列装，我们舰艇大队的战斗力水平可以获得飞跃式的提高。
等新装备来了以后，我们战斗舰艇的吨位将会增大，增加至原来的两倍多，抗风浪的能力也会更强，在恶劣天气下，履行战斗使命任务的能力会大大提高。另外，我们舰艇上的导弹、火炮，打击的距离也会增大，打击距离可以达到原来的四、五倍。在防空方面，新的舰只装备有防空导弹，防空水平也会大大改善。以前，我们防空主要靠火炮，火炮和导弹比，肯定差很多了。另外，我们下一步列装的护卫舰，还拥有反潜能力，装备了对海鱼雷。到那个时候，我们将会具备全方位保卫香港的能力，从空中到水面，从水下到电磁空间，我们可以展开立体作战，有效履行防卫香港的历史使命。

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Now let me direct you to this part at the end of that article:

驻港部队在通信指挥能力方面确实有了大幅提升，海军建设的发展更是让人刮目相看。驻港部队海军舰艇大队大队长冯尚连在接受采访记者采访时说：
　　...第二，从今年开始，我们舰艇大队要列装两艘轻型护卫舰。在此之前，我们的主战舰艇就是导弹护卫艇和巡逻艇，我们计划在“十二五”末，驻港大队的所有的舰艇全部换装新的。随着新装备的列装，我们舰艇大队的战斗力水平可以获得飞跃式的提高。
等新装备来了以后，我们战斗舰艇的吨位将会增大，增加至原来的两倍多，抗风浪的能力也会更强，在恶劣天气下，履行战斗使命任务的能力会大大提高。另外，我们舰艇上的导弹、火炮，打击的距离也会增大，打击距离可以达到原来的四、五倍。在防空方面，新的舰只装备有防空导弹，防空水平也会大大改善。以前，我们防空主要靠火炮，火炮和导弹比，肯定差很多了。另外，我们下一步列装的护卫舰，还拥有反潜能力，装备了对海鱼雷。...

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In English and summary: according to the CO of the garrison's naval flotilla, there has been major upgrading efforts since 2008; two 056 corvettes are to be induced into service beginning this year; and the current goal is that by the end of the "12th 5-year plan" (ie. 2015) the entire flotilla will be replaced with new vesselss. That said, by that time:

1. the tonnage of the flotilla's combatants will be will be more than doubled (the wording should be referred to individual vessel's, not total tonnage of the flotilla);
2. strike range will be 5-times more then current equipped;
3. ASW capability via anti-sub torpedo will be introduce on the next batch of 056 corvette - unless my Chinese is that bad, that sentence means the 056 corvettes will be introduced in 2 batches, with the batch after this one sport ASW mission packages?

Of course, those improvements are referring to the 056 corvette, so those 3 points should give us some idea in its capabilities. Plus, that also indicate the 037-II missile boats are slated to be phased out of the garrison flotilla by the end of 2015.

stardave said:

So what will this ship going to replace? And will it be build as fast as Type-022s.

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Based on the articles posted and general consensus in discussions here, the 037s are going to be replaced by the 056. Don't think it will be as fast as the 022s though. However, the capability and tonnage of the 056 is closer to the 053Hs.

Mysterre said:

You specifically said that I thought it was "impractical", by which you meant "not feasible". This isn't rocket science, and I'm simply responding to you accusing me of something which I never said. And there is absolutely no need to achieve a "Pyrrhic" victory in this case. Problem?

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Impractical and unfeasible are two completely different words with different meanings. There are some potential similaroities, but they are not synonyms.

If someone says it is impractical to travel to China, it does not mean it is impossible and not at all feasible. It simply measn that some practicality is standing in the way at the current time.

If someone said it is unfeasible to travel to China, it measn that they can't do it, that there is no feasible way to do it. It also does not imply that it will never be feasible or possible, unless specifically stated.

So, instead of presuming that he meant unfeasible, when speaking of impractical, ask him why he feels that way about it and you may find that the reason has nothing to do with feasibility.

Anyhow...IMHO, the back and forth is getting pretty circular.

I personally feel that the 056 could have a TAS and it could be capable of rearm and refuel an ASW helo. But I am not sure by any means. We just don't know enough to say for certain at this point.

There could be more batches coming with different emphasis. I personally doubt that...but again, I do not kow it for sure. We simply do not have enough info to say one way or the other for certain based on what I have read and seen regarding this vessel...though their are certainly rumors.

Within the next few months as these first two vessels enter their trials and we find our more about them through official releases, pictures, and talk that occurs as a result of their further use...we'll be able to answer them one way or the other. Beyond that, I do not believe any of the items or issues I just mentioned can be definitively or positively resolved either way at the current time.

But that's just my opinion.

Jeff Head said:

Impractical and unfeasible are two completely different words with different meanings. There are some potential similaroities, but they are not synonyms.

If someone says it is impractical to travel to China, it does not mean it is impossible and not at all feasible. It simply measn that some practicality is standing in the way at the current time.

If someone said it is unfeasible to travel to China, it measn that they can't do it, that there is no feasible way to do it. It also does not imply that it will never be feasible or possible, unless specifically stated.

So, instead of presuming that he meant unfeasible, when speaking of impractical, ask him why he feels that way about it and you may find that the reason has nothing to do with feasibility.

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You clearly did not read his post nor mine clearly. When HE said "impractical" he meant "not feasible" because he started describing physical dimensions. How hard is that to understand, seriously?

Jeff Head said:

Anyhow...IMHO, the back and forth is getting pretty circular.

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And yet you had to get your word in on the circularity, so what's the point?

Jeff Head said:

I personally feel that the 056 could have a TAS and it could be capable of rearm and refuel an ASW helo. But I am not sure by any means. We just don't know enough to say for certain at this point.

There could be more batches coming with different emphasis. I personally doubt that...but again, I do not kow it for sure. We simply do not have enough info to say one way or the other for certain based on what I have read and seen regarding this vessel...though their are certainly rumors.

Within the next few months as these first two vessels enter their trials and we find our more about them through official releases, pictures, and talk that occurs as a result of their further use...we'll be able to answer them one way or the other. Beyond that, I do not believe any of the items or issues I just mentioned can be definitively or positively resolved either way at the current time.

But that's just my opinion.

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I think the lack of TAS is pretty definitive at this point unless you choose to willfully ignore the obvious. The likelihood of torp launchers on THIS current batch is also very high unless you want to speculate that those triangular looking shapes sitting right next to the torpedo ports are something other than torpedoes. In other words, no UAV's. Also no rearming unless you unload torpedoes from the triple tubes themselves.

Mysterre said:

I find it fascinating that you would disagree so vehemently with me when I said the 052C could be retooled to have a second hangar but yet feel so confident that this little ship of 1/6th or 1/7th the size of the 052C could be retooled to have even one hangar. Perhaps you can reconcile this inconsistency for me.

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Easy, because our discussion about 052C was about whether they can engineer a second hangar from the current hull, in this case I think an A variant 056 will certainly have larger displacement (longer hull) so equipment can be rearranged.