054B/next generation frigate

Blitzo

Blitzo

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Kich said:
So PLAN are not building 20 more 054A.

Never understood that rumor. It seemed illogical that PLAN would build so many 054A and be stuck with so many inferior vessels down the line. Meanwhile they knew what other navies were building for their FFGs.
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Whoa, let's hold our horses a bit.
At best, we don't know if the 20 054As are going to be built or not.
But it's far from certain that they're not.

In fact, if I was forced to guess one way or another, I would argue that 20 054As is likely to be built.

First, let's remember that building 20 054As does not take very long at all. Even if HP and HD each use only a fraction of their current total frigate building lines, they can launch 20 054As in the span of 4-5 years.

What we know about 054B also suggests it will indeed have some significant improvements from 054A and perhaps even the entire PLAN's roster of naval ships, specifically in terms of its propulsion (if it is indeed IEPS), and that sort of advancement isn't something where I see the PLAN being comfortable to commit to without having an extra stopgap in service if there are teething issues.

Lastly, the construction of 20 054As does not mean that 054Bs cannot simultaneously be built for the navy, nor does it mean 054Bs cannot also be built at the same shipyards (HP and HD).
After all, it's not the first time that a Chinese shipyard has built two different naval ships of the same "type" for the PLAN, at the same time.
I am of course talking about 055 and 052D, both technically being "destroyers".
Now, while I certainly don't expect 054B to be that much larger than 054A in the way that 055 is that much larger than 052D, I wouldn't be surprised if 054B much more capable than 054A in the same way that 055 is much more capable than 052D (mostly by virtue of the fact that I 054B's sensor suite, weapons suite, CMS and weapons are likely to be significantly more capable than 054As was, whereas the difference between 055 and 052D is "relatively" less substantial).


I also wouldn't say that 20 054As means the PLAN would be "stuck" with inferior vessels.
054As are not meant to be the equivalent of Type 26 family, Constellation class, Gorshkov, or FREMM -- that will instead likely instead be the role of the 054B.
Instead, the 054As will be a cheap, mostly green water (but blue water capable if needed) ASW and patrol frigate with multirole capabilities and an AAW capability that is able to individually defend against threats from non-peer military threats, or to contribute to the defense of a task group against peer threats.
All in a ship that is cheap, proven, with a large production run meaning that any MLUs that are developed for the 054A class, will be able to benefit most if not all of the ships of the class.
 
A

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Kich said:
So PLAN are not building 20 more 054A.

Never understood that rumor. It seemed illogical that PLAN would build so many 054A and be stuck with so many inferior vessels down the line. Meanwhile they knew what other navies were building for their FFGs.
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The Type-054A will still be perfectly fine for ASW and medium-range air defence duties in low-medium threat environments.
And then there will be the Type-054B for high-threat environments.

Also, if you want to counter the Frigates that the US Navy or Japanese Navy have - you don't want to use Frigates.
It's not a symmetric competition

Instead of Frigates, you want to use other means (such as the Type-055/Type-052D destroyers or aircraft or submarines) which are much more effective at sinking enemy ships
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
sndef888 said:
So how many more 054A will there be? Couldn't really catch what Tam said

Anyway, it's good news to me. Getting a bit of OCD knowing the 054A doesn't have HQ-10
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Four, two from each yard.

My earlier post has a wording mistake. They have four kits, two for each yard, not four kits for each yard, my mistake.

So after Guandong Huangpu launches its second, and Hudong Zhonghua launches the second, for a total of four ships, it is then we should watch what comes out next.
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
blindsight said:
It may still be true. PLAN will put 054B into mass production only if the first batch (2-4?) proves to be reliable. By then they should have already finished the new batch of 054As. Don't forget, they still have one 053H1 and two 053H1Gs in service. The two 052s may retire during the next 5 years, which could also be replaced by 054A. The oldest two 053H3s (521 & 524) were supposed to be sold before the pandemic. They could go anytime as long as there's a buyer. So, 20 might not be as many as it sounds.
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I think the two 052 may last as long as the 2030s, perhaps given another minor update, such as replacing the HQ-7 with a single 24 missile HQ-10 launcher. Both remain as viable as ASW craft. I think the two remaining 053H3 might get refitted, again still viable as ASW ships.

There has been instances of parallel production, the last four 052Cs were built simultaneously as the first four 052Ds were being built,and the 056 was still being built while the much more useful 056A was also being built. I believe in these cases, the kits for the older designed ships have long been ordered and were already sitting in warehouses so they needed to be finished.

In the case of the parallel production of the 052D and the 055, they actually represent two different classifications, and furthermore, on prices. The 055 might be too expensive to be built in large quantity and so they are building the much cheaper and still capable 052D. There is also the technological caution, they don't want to invest too much and too fast on a new design that may prop up with bugs later on.

There could be a big difference in price between the 054A and the 054B that a differentiation of low and high end frigate is needed. This makes me think the 054B might be festooned with AESAs. All previous 2016-2017 drawing leaks can be regarded as nil at this point, with the new and revamped 054B replacing the cancelled model as they went back to the drawing board.

It can be that for a while that a number of 054A kits were already being made. So it can be out of a combination of price differentiation (052D vs 055) and contractual momentum (052C vs 052D, 056 vs 056A).
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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Tam said:
I think the two 052 may last as long as the 2030s, perhaps given another minor update, such as replacing the HQ-7 with a single 24 missile HQ-10 launcher. Both remain as viable as ASW craft. I think the two remaining 053H3 might get refitted, again still viable as ASW ships.

There has been instances of parallel production, the last four 052Cs were built simultaneously as the first four 052Ds were being built,and the 056 was still being built while the much more useful 056A was also being built. I believe in these cases, the kits for the older designed ships have long been ordered and were already sitting in warehouses so they needed to be finished.

In the case of the parallel production of the 052D and the 055, they actually represent two different classifications, and furthermore, on prices. The 055 might be too expensive to be built in large quantity and so they are building the much cheaper and still capable 052D. There is also the technological caution, they don't want to invest too much and too fast on a new design that may prop up with bugs later on.

There could be a big difference in price between the 054A and the 054B that a differentiation of low and high end frigate is needed. This makes me think the 054B might be festooned with AESAs. All previous 2016-2017 drawing leaks can be regarded as nil at this point, with the new and revamped 054B replacing the cancelled model as they went back to the drawing board.

It can be that for a while that a number of 054A kits were already being made. So it can be out of a combination of price differentiation (052D vs 055) and contractual momentum (052C vs 052D, 056 vs 056A).
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I think the overall point is that there is no reason to believe why there cannot be a number of years whereby 054As and 054Bs are simultaneously in production, and as you've written here, there have been past precedent of that happening with other combatants, sometimes at the same shipyard as well.
 
B

blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Tam said:
I think the two 052 may last as long as the 2030s, perhaps given another minor update, such as replacing the HQ-7 with a single 24 missile HQ-10 launcher. Both remain as viable as ASW craft. I think the two remaining 053H3 might get refitted, again still viable as ASW ships.

There has been instances of parallel production, the last four 052Cs were built simultaneously as the first four 052Ds were being built,and the 056 was still being built while the much more useful 056A was also being built. I believe in these cases, the kits for the older designed ships have long been ordered and were already sitting in warehouses so they needed to be finished.

In the case of the parallel production of the 052D and the 055, they actually represent two different classifications, and furthermore, on prices. The 055 might be too expensive to be built in large quantity and so they are building the much cheaper and still capable 052D. There is also the technological caution, they don't want to invest too much and too fast on a new design that may prop up with bugs later on.

There could be a big difference in price between the 054A and the 054B that a differentiation of low and high end frigate is needed. This makes me think the 054B might be festooned with AESAs. All previous 2016-2017 drawing leaks can be regarded as nil at this point, with the new and revamped 054B replacing the cancelled model as they went back to the drawing board.

It can be that for a while that a number of 054A kits were already being made. So it can be out of a combination of price differentiation (052D vs 055) and contractual momentum (052C vs 052D, 056 vs 056A).
Click to expand...
112/113 have been refitted at least twice. I don't think there'll be another one. They kept the HHQ-7 launcher last time, which makes me feel PLAN probably won't keep them that long. One possibility is that they could be transferred to Dalian Naval Academy as training ships.
 
lcloo

lcloo

Captain
There is a precedent that while building the two type 054 (#525 and #526 launched in 2005), they were still building type 053H3 (also launched in 2005), pennant number 527 and 528.

Also they continued with building type 052C immediately before building type 052D.

So the perception of stopping building additional type 054A++ is just a personal idea of our members rather than the reflection of PLAN ship buiding practice.

Another thing is that PLAN destroyers and frigates' normal service period is 30 years, not 40 years as pointed by a member earlier.
 
T

Tam

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blindsight said:
112/113 have been refitted at least twice. I don't think there'll be another one. They kept the HHQ-7 launcher last time, which makes me feel PLAN probably won't keep them that long. One possibility is that they could be transferred to Dalian Naval Academy as training ships.
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There is far too much looking into the AAW factor and not looking into others.

They got refitted with newer TAS and VDS in their last major refit. This means their current state of sonar performance is equal to a 052D or a 054A. Both are potent ASW hunters with two helicopters and a hanger. The addition of the Type 517 radar also makes it a long range radar picket ship capable of picking up stealthy targets albeit at a low resolution. There is also the bonus of having 16 antiship missiles, which you can install YU-11s instead of YJ-83 for a better sub hunting outcome. Both ships are fitted with the latest SATCOMs. There has been major updates in the SATCOMs of 054A and 056A ships to point that something is going on here that is primarily related to their mission. The ships are also fitted with the same EW and countermeasures fit as the 052D, which were then would be state of the art for the PLAN and the current working standard now. So in terms of soft kill measures the 052 refit is equal to a 052D.

The 053H3 refit boasts the same equipment as the 052 refit, but on a smaller ship. The real reduction is one helicopter instead of two and 8 ASM to 16 ASM canisters, which should also be YU-11 optional. The EW kit is on the same level as the last four Type 054A batch, which means technically, the 053H3 refit may have better EW capability over the first 20 Type 054A. And again, you got the TAS and the VDS for the sub hunting.

The rationale for the PLAN to build as many 054A and 056A as much as possible lies in the fact the PLAN is rightfully concerned about opposing submarine forces. Frigates are not counters to other frigates, frigates are counters to submarines. Retaining older ships that still have equal ASW potential would align to this. They should be useful as part of a green water or first island chain fleet as long as their hulls remain serviceable.
 
W

weig2000

Captain
Building additional 20 054As when you already have 30 of them in service is puzzling. It's even more puzzling when you consider that 054A is hardly at cutting-edge now and when you already have started building your next-generation frigate,

Unless, of course, situations or realistic scenarios call for a large and quick build-up. What are the situations that justify such a buildup? I can think of two, not necessarily mutually exclusive.

The first one is to anticipate some serious conflicts in the near future with very large and powerful adversaries, in which case you need the right class of ships to scale quickly and cost-effectively, to the quantity above and beyond what you need for normal time. The ship needs to be mature and capable. Among PLAN's surface combatants, 054A is that ship. It meets the criteria and strikes the balance.

The second is that I predict China will fight a war of presence in its surrounding waters (SCS/around Taiwan/ECS) and in the Western Pacific up to second island chain in the next decade. The Western Pacific has become very crowded waters with so many navies, both from neighboring and far-flung countries, sending their warships either to do FONS or joint exercises. PLAN needs many ships to track, monitor, repulse, control or simply be present everywhere and at anytime. Or better yet it may want to crowd out the adversaries' presence. For that, you need a lot of ships that can be deployed widely, cost-effectively and able to defend themselves.

There have been precedent for the second situation. Over 10 years ago, when Japanese government took over the ownership of Senkaku Islands, China launched a large and quick buildup of its CMS fleet by building more and much larger ships than its Japanese counterpart, and challenged this Japanese sovereign act by sending maritime coast guard ships regularly within the territorial waters of Senkaku Islands. Japan couldn't do anything about it and had to accept the constant presence of CMS ships.

Some recent news also help support this hypothesis.

In the first one,
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, between Yonaguni Island of Japan and northeast Taiwan according to Japanese sources. It's a PLAN Type 054A frigate. This is something new. Expect more ships in more places regularly around Taiwan and SCS. In fact, I expect China will eventually have large naval presence to the east of Taiwan regularly if not constantly, including aircraft carrier group.

In the second one,
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. Like the ECS ADIZ announced in 2013, this one will be difficult to enforce initially, but it is to lay the foundation for more enforcement in the future.

These are not isolated events. China has a strategy, clearly.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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weig2000 said:
Building additional 20 054As when you already have 30 of them in service is puzzling. It's even more puzzling when you consider that 054A is hardly at cutting-edge now and when you already have started building your next-generation frigate,

Unless, of course, situations or realistic scenarios call for a large and quick build-up. What are the situations that justify such a buildup? I can think of two, not necessarily mutually exclusive.

The first one is to anticipate some serious conflicts in the near future with very large and powerful adversaries, in which case you need the right class of ships to scale quickly and cost-effectively, to the quantity above and beyond what you need for normal time. The ship needs to be mature and capable. Among PLAN's surface combatants, 054A is that ship. It meets the criteria and strikes the balance.

The second is that I predict China will fight a war of presence in its surrounding waters (SCS/around Taiwan/ECS) and in the Western Pacific up to second island chain in the next decade. The Western Pacific has become very crowded waters with so many navies, both from neighboring and far-flung countries, sending their warships either to do FONS or joint exercises. PLAN needs many ships to track, monitor, repulse, control or simply be present everywhere and at anytime. Or better yet it may want to crowd out the adversaries' presence. For that, you need a lot of ships that can be deployed widely, cost-effectively and able to defend themselves.

There have been precedent for the second situation. Over 10 years ago, when Japanese government took over the ownership of Senkaku Islands, China launched a large and quick buildup of its CMS fleet by building more and much larger ships than its Japanese counterpart, and challenged this Japanese sovereign act by sending maritime coast guard ships regularly within the territorial waters of Senkaku Islands. Japan couldn't do anything about it and had to accept the constant presence of CMS ships.

Some recent news also help support this hypothesis.

In the first one,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, between Yonaguni Island of Japan and northeast Taiwan according to Japanese sources. It's a PLAN Type 054A frigate. This is something new. Expect more ships in more places regularly around Taiwan and SCS. In fact, I expect China will eventually have large naval presence to the east of Taiwan regularly if not constantly, including aircraft carrier group.

In the second one,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Like the ECS ADIZ announced in 2013, this one will be difficult to enforce initially, but it is to lay the foundation for more enforcement in the future.

These are not isolated events. China has a strategy, clearly.
Click to expand...

I agree with this as well -- the number of hulls in service has a direct relation to the number of peacetime "deployed" hulls at sea, even if in this case the area of operations is relatively close to them (ECS or SCS), and I've long speculated that the PLAN would probably seek to pursue a near constant naval presence in the ECS and SCS theaters going forwards. At first it may just be a frigate, then maybe a couple of frigates then a destroyer, then maybe a fully fledged surface action group.

054As could either contribute to such task forces, or 054As could operate closer to China's shores to enable destroyers to be deployed there.

And of course, in general, 054As are still useful in a high intensity conflict when supported by sufficiently capable friendly naval and air forces, as well as sufficiently modern to enjoy MLUs in the future.... then when we consider that the PLAN are probably hedging their bets a little bit for the first few years when 054B enters service and accounting for teething issues, I think the extra 20 054As is a bit of a no brainer.
 
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