054/A FFG Thread II

[AndrewS]

Not oversized. The Udaloy class is fairly about the same size and this is optimized for ASW.

Steel is the cheapest component of a warship. An increase in tonnage is the cheapest thing you can add to a warship. More space also means more provisions, fuel and food with more living room for sustained journeys.

Frigates continue to get larger. Type 31 "intermediate frigate" is already about roughly the size of the 051B/C. Germany has contracted frigates that would displace already at over 10,000 tons.

With the Udaloys, you can also see they have been built with an extremely long range in mind. It's listed as 19,400 km @ 14 knots.
That is 3x more than the contemporary Sovremmeny AAW destroyer

You can also see 64 Medium-Range SAMs on the Udaloy, which is twice as many as the Spruance ASW destroyers or most Frigates
Yes, the Udaloys were optimised for ASW, but it looks more for long-range ASW operations far from resupply

The other Frigates you mentioned all have to travel long distances as well, but I don't see China having a requirement for a long-range ASW ship in a high-intensity conflict for some time yet. Eventually yes, but not for another 10 years.

Until then, I expect Chinese ASW ships would be operating at a maximum of 3000km (eg Guam/ASEAN) from the Chinese coastline, and frequently would be a lot closer to home

So I think a 4000ton-class ASW Frigate (like the Type-054, OH Perry or Neustrashimy) is more cost-efficient than a 7500ton-class ASW Destroyer (like the Udaloy or a Type-052 ASW variant)

 

[blindsight]

With the Udaloys, you can also see they have been built with an extremely long range in mind. It's listed as 19,400 km @ 14 knots.
That is 3x more than the contemporary Sovremmeny AAW destroyer

You can also see 64 Medium-Range SAMs on the Udaloy, which is twice as many as the Spruance ASW destroyers or most Frigates
Yes, the Udaloys were optimised for ASW, but it looks more for long-range ASW operations far from resupply

The other Frigates you mentioned all have to travel long distances as well, but I don't see China having a requirement for a long-range ASW ship in a high-intensity conflict for some time yet. Eventually yes, but not for another 10 years.

Until then, I expect Chinese ASW ships would be operating at a maximum of 3000km (eg Guam/ASEAN) from the Chinese coastline, and frequently would be a lot closer to home

So I think a 4000ton-class ASW Frigate (like the Type-054, OH Perry or Neustrashimy) is more cost-efficient than a 7500ton-class ASW Destroyer (like the Udaloy or a Type-052 ASW variant)

But with the same logic, PLAN don't have to build the 055 either, at least not for now.

I agree that PLAN still need 054-sized ASW ships, but it's also good time to start to develop a larger ASW frigate for the future.

 

[blindsight]

And I do see the 052B refit a good starting point. But with the 555 missile in mind, maybe it should switch to the U-VLS.

 

[Tam]

With the Udaloys, you can also see they have been built with an extremely long range in mind. It's listed as 19,400 km @ 14 knots.
That is 3x more than the contemporary Sovremmeny AAW destroyer

You can also see 64 Medium-Range SAMs on the Udaloy, which is twice as many as the Spruance ASW destroyers or most Frigates
Yes, the Udaloys were optimised for ASW, but it looks more for long-range ASW operations far from resupply

The other Frigates you mentioned all have to travel long distances as well, but I don't see China having a requirement for a long-range ASW ship in a high-intensity conflict for some time yet. Eventually yes, but not for another 10 years.

Until then, I expect Chinese ASW ships would be operating at a maximum of 3000km (eg Guam/ASEAN) from the Chinese coastline, and frequently would be a lot closer to home

So I think a 4000ton-class ASW Frigate (like the Type-054, OH Perry or Neustrashimy) is more cost-efficient than a 7500ton-class ASW Destroyer (like the Udaloy or a Type-052 ASW variant)

Udaloy does not have medium range SAMs. It has Klinoks. Klinoks -> Naval Tor-M1 -> Similar to HQ-17. Close equivalent to Tor-M1 in the West is Crotale, which is for Chinese HQ-7. Tor-M1 is a very effective SHORAD. Udaloy is a porcupine with short ranged but sharp spikes.

054A is long ranged enough to service the Gulf of Aden. What a 052X based frigate can bring to the ASW equation is the dash ability of gas turbines, its ability to keep up with carrier groups, and its inherent smoothness.

OH sized frigates are going down the dodo bird, as the world trend is to keep building larger and larger warships. Frigates would be destroyer sized in the future and destroyers will be cruiser sized. Check this.

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Proven still capable hull that can leverage existing infrastructure in manufacturing and training vs. brand new platform that's probably only going to be slightly or incrementally smaller, requires new training and such. The brand new platform isn't going to be cheap because it requires new manufacturing equipment, training and so on. So its initial costs are going to be higher among earlier units, while 052X platform has long been amortized, and the costs keep going lower to every unit.

 

[gelgoog]

I agree that the next generation PLAN frigate should be ASW capable. This means some sort of gas turbine boost will likely be required.
VLS commonality with the destroyers would be nice.

If you look at what Japan and Russia are fielding now, I expect China to counter them sooner or later.
The US Constellation class frigates though are about the same displacement as the 052 and have way less weapons capability. So @Tam's proposal isn't totally far fetched.

 

[sndef888]

Maybe something ideal would be like the FREMM frigates of Italy and France, bigger than the 054A but not quite as big as the 052D, equipped with ~32 UVLS and 1 gas turbine + 2 diesels, so cheaper than the 052D significantly but with better blue water capabilities than the 054A


Interestingly, the French equip their ASW fremms with 16 mrsams and 16 land attack missiles.

 

[lcloo]

Why are frigates from NATO countries getting bigger to the size of destroyers? IMO, they need range and endurance principally due to the expanded current and future opeation areas outside the tradtional areas in North Atlantic Ocean, i.e. they are expanding into Indian Ocean, South China Sea and West Pacific region.

And would China follow the same doctrine by expanding from its operational areas in seas around China (and the Somalia escort convoys) to Indian Oceans and East and South Pacific regions and may be into Atlantic ocean?

Roles and missions will determine size and weapons configuration of China's future frigates. They are not going to blindly follow the trend in the West. Will China send their future destroyer size large frigates to South America or West Africa to escort their aircraft carrier group? One thing I do know is that China has constantly stating that they are not going to be global police like the USA and NATO (in support of US fleet).

Will Chinese frigates be getting bigger than 4,000 tons, yes that is definite but only big enough to match their future aircraft carrier group, in terms of speed and endurance. This will also means bigger number of missiles and torpedoes they will carry.

However, blindly chasing to fill in large number of missiles that does not match their intended roles and areas of operations is not worth the money spend. Some of these extra missiles may never be used during the full life of the ship even if they will to be engage in several sea battles.

Frigates (for large navies) are meant for fleet defence in either mid-range AAW or ASW, fitting them with area air defence missiles like HQ-9 is simply a waste of money as that is over-lap of roles with destroyers. Exception is if frigates are the largest ship in navy and their roles would be that of destroyers which small countries cannot afford to acquire.

 

[AndrewS]

Udaloy does not have medium range SAMs. It has Klinoks. Klinoks -> Naval Tor-M1 -> Similar to HQ-17. Close equivalent to Tor-M1 in the West is Crotale, which is for Chinese HQ-7. Tor-M1 is a very effective SHORAD. Udaloy is a porcupine with short ranged but sharp spikes.

Ah yes, They are closer to SHORAD than medium range SAMs

054A is long ranged enough to service the Gulf of Aden. What a 052X based frigate can bring to the ASW equation is the dash ability of gas turbines, its ability to keep up with carrier groups, and its inherent smoothness.

Gulf of Aden missions are a nice to have for the next 10 years. It's good for some training, but the Western Pacific is where any high-intensity conflict will be decided. If you put gas turbines on a Frigate, you'll get enough speed to keep up with carrier groups and also the inherent smoothness/quietness.

OH sized frigates are going down the dodo bird, as the world trend is to keep building larger and larger warships. Frigates would be destroyer sized in the future and destroyers will be cruiser sized. Check this.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Proven still capable hull that can leverage existing infrastructure in manufacturing and training vs. brand new platform that's probably only going to be slightly or incrementally smaller, requires new training and such. The brand new platform isn't going to be cheap because it requires new manufacturing equipment, training and so on. So its initial costs are going to be higher among earlier units, while 052X platform has long been amortized, and the costs keep going lower to every unit.

I agree ships are getting larger, but the they don't have to grow that much in size
Other navies have a requirement for very long-range ships because they have to travel vast distances, whereas Chinese ships do not

When I was referring to the OH Perry, I was referring to both its size and speed, given that it was using gas turbines

 

[szbd]

Suppose PLAN is satisfied with the frigate force size of 52 054A, then the next generation of frigate will get into service around 2040. I can't imagine what kind of ship it will be.

 

[AndrewS]

Why are frigates from NATO countries getting bigger to the size of destroyers? IMO, they need range and endurance principally due to the expanded current and future opeation areas outside the tradtional areas in North Atlantic Ocean, i.e. they are expanding into Indian Ocean, South China Sea and West Pacific region.

And would China follow the same doctrine by expanding from its operational areas in seas around China (and the Somalia escort convoys) to Indian Oceans and East and South Pacific regions and may be into Atlantic ocean?

Roles and missions will determine size and weapons configuration of China's future frigates. They are not going to blindly follow the trend in the West. Will China send their future destroyer size large frigates to South America or West Africa to escort their aircraft carrier group? One thing I do know is that China has constantly stating that they are not going to be global police like the USA and NATO (in support of US fleet).

Will Chinese frigates be getting bigger than 4,000 tons, yes that is definite but only big enough to match their future aircraft carrier group, in terms of speed and endurance. This will also means bigger number of missiles and torpedoes they will carry.

However, blindly chasing to fill in large number of missiles that does not match their intended roles and areas of operations is not worth the money spend. Some of these extra missiles may never be used during the full life of the ship even if they will to be engage in several sea battles.

Frigates (for large navies) are meant for fleet defence in either mid-range AAW or ASW, fitting them with area air defence missiles like HQ-9 is simply a waste of money as that is over-lap of roles with destroyers. Exception is if frigates are the largest ship in navy and their roles would be that of destroyers which small countries cannot afford to acquire.

From a strategy point of view, I think that for the next 10 years, the Chinese fleet needs to be designed with operations up to the 2nd Island Chain

In a high-intensity conflict, it's not realistic for the Chinese Navy to operate beyond.
They would need enough carriers/submarines to win a blue water battle