054/A FFG Thread II

Tam

Brigadier
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Based on what do you expect the illumination range to have increased? Was there an improvement in range for the updated ground version?

To play the Devil's advocate: the new illuminators appear fixed unlike the Front Domes that could rotate, and will therefore suffer performance degradation at high off-bore angles. Furthermore, their aperture appears smaller than the Front Domes. The new phased arrays would have to emit significantly more RF power just to match in range the old phased array.


If its AESA, chances are good its using ICW instead of just CW or FMCW. Because each T/R module only has one antenna, a circulator turns the antenna into transmit and receive phases. This means the CW cannot be transmitted continuously, but is interrupted in phases for a receive cycle, like a pseudo-pulse radar. The difference is that the CW waveform is still continuously generated internally even during the interrupted receive phase.

With this, you don't have a single antenna that is transmitting and receiving continually at the same time, which suffers from loss because receive and transmit are not isolated and interferes with each other. Rather receive and transmit are now isolated. Combine that with frequency modulation, for FMICW where you "chirp" the waveform timed during the transmit, this begins to be more like a pseudo high PRF radar. We know that SAST, which is responsible for the HQ-16 seeker and radars, have an ICW seeker and a land based AESA guidance radar.

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On the A8-TG680 guidance radar vehicle, the illuminator is the smaller array at the panel. The naval unit could be derived from this unit, and they both seem to be of similar size.

This also means you have a new version of the HQ-16 with a new ICW seeker to match, and have existing HQ-16s refitted with the new seeker. This might refer to the HQ-16B or HQ-16C.

Closest non Chinese equivalent might be the Australian CEAMOUNT which reminds me of this.

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And the X-band illuminators on the Japanese Akizuki and Asahi classes. Both these have small tiny rectangular panels for illuminators using fixed mounts. These require the ICW compatible version of ESSM and SM-2 to work.


Image0007.jpeg19DD_Asahi_Destroyer_25DD_class_JMSDF_Japan_1.jpg

The power feed to the new arrays on the 054A might also have been increased and brute power may not be off the table. IMO, its probably a combination of increased brute, AESA inherent advantages and ICW.

As this is X-band, the spacing between each T/R element is much more compact than an S-band, and the array size might also be more comparable to that of a fighter jet's radar.
 
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nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
On the A8-TG680 guidance radar vehicle, the illuminator is the smaller array at the panel. The naval unit could be derived from this unit, and they both seem to be of similar size.
Hmm. I can't really tell what the smaller array is. Do you have a better photo?
This also means you have a new version of the HQ-16 with a new ICW seeker to match, and have existing HQ-16s refitted with the new seeker. This might refer to the HQ-16B or HQ-16C.

Closest non Chinese equivalent might be the Australian CEAMOUNT which reminds me of this.

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And the X-band illuminators on the Japanese Akizuki and Asahi classes. Both these have small tiny rectangular panels for illuminators using fixed mounts. These require the ICW compatible version of ESSM and SM-2 to work.
The new tracker/illuminator on the 054(B?) is not comparable to these systems. CEAMOUNT is only a transmitting antenna. It is slaved to the CEAFAR search and track radar. Similar for the FCS-3A on the Akizuki class.

If the new antennae are X-band only, and they can multifunction between track and illuminate, then they are most similar to APAR-X or SPY-3. Although, the latter perform the search role as well, but these panels are not at their optimal height for that role. Are you positive that these panels are not part of an EW suite? Instead of an ICWI capable seeker, the new HQ-16 variant might have an ARH seeker?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Hmm. I can't really tell what the smaller array is. Do you have a better photo?

The new tracker/illuminator on the 054(B?) is not comparable to these systems. CEAMOUNT is only a transmitting antenna. It is slaved to the CEAFAR search and track radar. Similar for the FCS-3A on the Akizuki class.

If the new antennae are X-band only, and they can multifunction between track and illuminate, then they are most similar to APAR-X or SPY-3. Although, the latter perform the search role as well, but these panels are not at their optimal height for that role. Are you positive that these panels are not part of an EW suite? Instead of an ICWI capable seeker, the new HQ-16 variant might have an ARH seeker?

1.)

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2.) CEAMOUNT is probably slave/transmitter only but FCS-3A is likely a true FCR. The FCS-3A is the only thing in the Akizuki class that can also serve as a gun fire control radar so I don't think its a slave only. If CEAMOUNT can track targets separately and does not need to be slaved, CEAFAR is free to search, detect and track new hostiles, which I think is a better idea.

2a). If these new arrays can track targets separately, they don't need a primary search function. Other radars can search and cue to the FCRs to the targets, and once that is so, leaving the FCR to track the targets separately in a high quality mode. This is duplicating what the MR-90s already do.

3.) I don't know if its EW. This type only first appeared in the last four 054A in 2016 making it fairly new, and reappeared in the 054A/P and 054 refit. The housing of the 726-3 contains a set of phase arrays. Here is the set as it appears on the refitted 525 Maanshan. No. 31 has not been fitted with its EW equipment as during the time of launching, but its likely something scheduled to be done in the fitting phase, and I don't see any reason why they won't add this, unless they are launching a new ECM fit once again.

726-3b.png


Older Type 751 ECM with most Type 054A for comparison.

751a.png


4.) The other possibility is that it might be CEC as these are sized similar to the CEC antennas. However, CEC antennas are better served if they are located higher like on the mast and can only be low for the lack of better alternatives.

Test fit on #515. This ship was in a Gulf of Adens in an escort mission and stopped over at Greece where this picture is taken.
IMG_0164.jpg


5.) Datalinks for ARH HQ-16. When I think of this, I still wonder if there is any radar that can provide a high or weapons quality track because even ARH missiles will still benefit from this. We know ARH missiles still need to be updated until they are close enough to the target to use their seeker. The question is whether you have a radar that can glare or stare at the targets, and update fast enough for weapons quality tracks. If not one radar can suffice (Type 382) then two (Type 382 + Type 364, or even Type 366 added) using track combine. Or use the gunnery FCR (Type 347/349). However if longer ranges, you have to depend on the Type 382, until the target is within range of the Type 364) and line of sight of the Type 366 in order to use track combine. Possible if the ARH HQ-16 has a range up to 60 to 70km, which is still within range of the Type 364. But if you need datalinks then the range goes beyond the Type 364, and you have to rely completely on the track quality of the Type 382, which might have to be aided with track prediction. IMO, if the Type 382 is able to give weapons quality tracks for ARH missiles, then you won't need Type 346 on the 052X series, and you might as well use the HQ-9 or a smaller version of it, on the 054A. This radar only electronically scans in the vertical and the horizontal measurement is dependent on the rate of mechanical rotation. Its accurate enough to queue other radars, like say the MR-90s, towards their targets, which then the MR-90s take over for an even more accurate scan and track. Is the Type 382 + Type 364 track combine accurate enough to use the MR-90s in a completely transmit only slave mode?

If I look at other foreign examples, the Redut, for example, while active, still requires the Poliment FCR to bring the missiles to the target catch basket. The Poliment is a set of fixed X-band phase arrays, and the Redut doesn't rely on the rotating Furke search radar. Rotating phase arrays that serve the ARH Aster, such as SAMPSON, EMPAR, Herkales and Kronos, might have glare modes where the face would glare at the target instead of continuously rotating at a constant speed. During these glares, the face achieves a 3D scan, both horizontal and vertical without relying on a mechanical rotation for the horizontal reading. With all electronic 3D scans, the face can achieve any number of fast scans to reach enough updates for a weapons quality track.

IMO, I maybe a bit more confident that the HQ-16 might have gone ARH if the main search radar for the Type 054A has been changed. The new fixed arrays can be datalinks only for ARH, or they can be illuminators + datalinks for SARH.

6.) Why I think the new arrays are MR-90 replacements, used for track and illuminate. They are located near where the MR-90s are formerly located. While location is not an absolute reason why it is, for me, that's a vital clue. Do they operate in a transmit only slave mode? One has to assume Type 382 + 364 combine track is accurate enough with algorithms predicting and refining on the track. I think both Type 382 and 364 only work to cue the FCRs towards the targets, leaving the FCRs to track in high quality and engage while the search radars leave off to detect the next wave of incoming threats. That's likely how they worked before.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
The FCS-3A is the only thing in the Akizuki class that can also serve as a gun fire control radar so I don't think its a slave only. If CEAMOUNT can track targets separately and does not need to be slaved, CEAFAR is free to search, detect and track new hostiles, which I think is a better idea.
I haven't found as much info on FCS-3A. It should be pointed out that the larger arrays are C-band, and there are quite a few systems around the world that use or have used C-band for fire control. Could they not also serve as gun fire control?
2a). If these new arrays can track targets separately, they don't need a primary search function. Other radars can search and cue to the FCRs to the targets, and once that is so, leaving the FCR to track the targets separately in a high quality mode. This is duplicating what the MR-90s already do.
True, but under the assumption that these are radars and not just illuminators, and that they are AESA, how hard would it be to add a search function? Furthermore, why skip the opportunity not to have this function? A tracker/illuminator would only be used during engagement, whereas an additional search function would make them far more useful. My issue with this hypothesis is that if they are indeed MFR with ICWI capability, it would make more sense to install them up high on a mast, which is not the case here.
5.) Datalinks for ARH HQ-16. When I think of this, I still wonder if there is any radar that can provide a high or weapons quality track because even ARH missiles will still benefit from this. We know ARH missiles still need to be updated until they are close enough to the target to use their seeker. The question is whether you have a radar that can glare or stare at the targets, and update fast enough for weapons quality tracks. If not one radar can suffice (Type 382) then two (Type 382 + Type 364, or even Type 366 added) using track combine. Or use the gunnery FCR (Type 347/349). However if longer ranges, you have to depend on the Type 382, until the target is within range of the Type 364) and line of sight of the Type 366 in order to use track combine. Possible if the ARH HQ-16 has a range up to 60 to 70km, which is still within range of the Type 364.
This might also be the case. The one analogue that comes to mind is the former Kidd class, now in ROC. They have 4 phased array missile downlinks, each covering a quarter hemisphere. The Kidd class used data fusion of SPS-48E and SPS-49(V)5 to produce target tracks for midcourse guidance of SM-2 missiles.
6.) Why I think the new arrays are MR-90 replacements, used for track and illuminate. They are located near where the MR-90s are formerly located. While location is not an absolute reason why it is, for me, that's a vital clue. Do they operate in a transmit only slave mode? One has to assume Type 382 + 364 combine track is accurate enough with algorithms predicting and refining on the track. I think both Type 382 and 364 only work to cue the FCRs towards the targets, leaving the FCRs to track in high quality and engage while the search radars leave off to detect the next wave of incoming threats. That's likely how they worked before.
Yes, this sounds reasonable, but still brings me back to 2a): if they are radars, why not add a search function? I understand that the MR-90s had a rather limited FOV, were designed back in the age when hardware used to be more specialized, and were not installed in such a way that would allow the array to rotate/radiate continuously over 360 degrees. But that's not a problem for AESA nowadays.

I still lean slightly more towards the possibility that the new HQ-16s are ARH, and these panels have some kind of datalink or EW function. Looking forward to seeing the final configuration once the fitting out is done.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I haven't found as much info on FCS-3A. It should be pointed out that the larger arrays are C-band, and there are quite a few systems around the world that use or have used C-band for fire control. Could they not also serve as gun fire control?

True, but under the assumption that these are radars and not just illuminators, and that they are AESA, how hard would it be to add a search function? Furthermore, why skip the opportunity not to have this function? A tracker/illuminator would only be used during engagement, whereas an additional search function would make them far more useful. My issue with this hypothesis is that if they are indeed MFR with ICWI capability, it would make more sense to install them up high on a mast, which is not the case here.

This might also be the case. The one analogue that comes to mind is the former Kidd class, now in ROC. They have 4 phased array missile downlinks, each covering a quarter hemisphere. The Kidd class used data fusion of SPS-48E and SPS-49(V)5 to produce target tracks for midcourse guidance of SM-2 missiles.

Yes, this sounds reasonable, but still brings me back to 2a): if they are radars, why not add a search function? I understand that the MR-90s had a rather limited FOV, were designed back in the age when hardware used to be more specialized, and were not installed in such a way that would allow the array to rotate/radiate continuously over 360 degrees. But that's not a problem for AESA nowadays.

I still lean slightly more towards the possibility that the new HQ-16s are ARH, and these panels have some kind of datalink or EW function. Looking forward to seeing the final configuration once the fitting out is done.

1. With regards to FCS-3A, while there maybe a few used for gun fire control (I myself can't recall any but my memory fails me sometimes), X-band is by far the most popular band for this, and unlike the Australian frigate, on the Japanese destroyer I cannot find anything that resembles that can provide such a function.

2. With an X-band MFR with a thin tiny beam for a search function, it takes a long time to cover a swath of the sky, and so its not regarded as efficient for this. It would be better for another radar to tell the X-band "here, scan this small area of the sky." So a search function on MFRs is useful in a secondary though not in a primary way. Having a search function on the MFR also helps with redundancy if the main search radar suffers a failure or battle damage. The MFR can also provide a high quality track on a target the search radar isn't capable of, even if you do not plan to engage the target. However, this can rub the target the wrong way, if the plane has a RWR it would be sounding off that an FCR is tracking and locking on it, and that can go politically bad quickly (incident with Korean destroyer aiming its FCR on Japanese MPA.)
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
My issue with this hypothesis is that if they are indeed MFR with ICWI capability, it would make more sense to install them up high on a mast, which is not the case here.

Ideally that should be the case...for the next generation frigate.

In this case however, you have to rely on what you are handed with. Each of these four arrays are situated exactly where the MR-90s once used to be. Two above the bridge, two above the rear hanger.

The mast itself is already filled up, and there is no space I can think that you can attach these. There is no additional power feed either. You would have to redesign the entire upper mast, and if you are going to do that, why not change your main radar set up, then go on and create an integrated mast?

The power feed lines to the original set of MR-90s are pre-existing, so why not take advantage of that. The feed must have plenty of juice on it, given its former owner.

If these are illuminators then their FOV and radar horizon is worst or better than what the previously have with the MR-90. The key issue is not about perfection, but what the PLAN considers acceptable and what it can achieve with speed, the minimum of changes and within budget.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
2. With an X-band MFR with a thin tiny beam for a search function, it takes a long time to cover a swath of the sky, and so its not regarded as efficient for this. It would be better for another radar to tell the X-band "here, scan this small area of the sky." So a search function on MFRs is useful in a secondary though not in a primary way.
I think this is true only for a simple X-band phased array. A phased array, and in particular an active one, can adjust its beamwidth, in at least two ways:
1) Radiate from subarrays, instead of full array. The results is multiple wider beams. The smaller the subarray the wider the beam
2) Adjust the weights of the phase (and amplitude?) shifts across the full array to construct a wider shaped main lobe.

Having a search function on the MFR also helps with redundancy if the main search radar suffers a failure or battle damage. The MFR can also provide a high quality track on a target the search radar isn't capable of, even if you do not plan to engage the target. However, this can rub the target the wrong way, if the plane has a RWR it would be sounding off that an FCR is tracking and locking on it, and that can go politically bad quickly (incident with Korean destroyer aiming its FCR on Japanese MPA.)
Yes. Although I wonder how the other party would react when they are tracked by a high power SPY-1 pencil beam? These large powerful search&track radars are quite capable of guiding a passive missile to within a few kms of a target. Such tracks should be considered just as dangerous as a FCR lock.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think this is true only for a simple X-band phased array. A phased array, and in particular an active one, can adjust its beamwidth, in at least two ways:
1) Radiate from subarrays, instead of full array. The results is multiple wider beams. The smaller the subarray the wider the beam
2) Adjust the weights of the phase (and amplitude?) shifts across the full array to construct a wider shaped main lobe.


Yes. Although I wonder how the other party would react when they are tracked by a high power SPY-1 pencil beam? These large powerful search&track radars are quite capable of guiding a passive missile to within a few kms of a target. Such tracks should be considered just as dangerous as a FCR lock.

If you radiate from a subarray, you will also lose range, and its better to have this one with either a short wide array if you want a tall narrow beam or a tall narrow array for a short wide beam. There is only as much as you can do with the phase shift as you are inherently limited by the number of phase shifters in a given direction. The primary job of an FCR isn't search; search is only redundancy, situational and secondary. In any case, if the 054A's new emitters have a search function, its there as a backup, secondary and situational. Also if the emitter is going to have a search and track function, this might be better served as a pulse radar or an ICW aka pseudo pulse, the pulse allows you for a longer range and allows you to have ranging.

If you are tracked by an SPY-1 search beam, RWR may still register it as a search radar in lieu because RWR is detecting an S-band. In addition, a RWR can also distinguish the PRF and the waveform. So even if you are illuminated by SPY-1, S-band and low PRF will tell you the radar is in a search and detect mode or a TWS. The higher the update rate of the radar and the higher the PRF, which a good RWR will tell, this points that you are now being tracked with an increasingly high quality scan so you should probably be on your guard with regards to the intentions of the ship.

If its an X-band dwelling on you, that's a greater cause of concern because that's likely to be a fire control radar or worst yet, a missile seeker. The exception to that would be X-band in pulse and coming in with long cycles, as that's indicative of a rotating navigation radar, and each cycle is matching the rotation rate of the array. X-band with high PRF that's an indication of a gunnery or fire control radar (land, ship, jet) locking on to you or an active guided missile locked on to you. X-band with CW, that means missile lock, as being a target illuminator on the air, ground or surface now lighting you up, or there is an active guided missile nearby, and its time to drop chaff and turn around.
 
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nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
If you radiate from a subarray, you will also lose range, and its better to have this one with either a short wide array if you want a tall narrow beam or a tall narrow array for a short wide beam. There is only as much as you can do with the phase shift as you are inherently limited by the number of phase shifters in a given direction. The primary job of an FCR isn't search; search is only redundancy, situational and secondary. In any case, if the 054A's new emitters have a search function, its there as a backup, secondary and situational. Also if the emitter is going to have a search and track function, this might be better served as a pulse radar or an ICW aka pseudo pulse, the pulse allows you for a longer range and allows you to have ranging.
In the most straightforward implementation, beamwidth is a function of antenna aperture size and number of phase shifting elements. For small X-band arrays like the one on Type 054, the beamwidth is not going to be any narrower than the much larger S-band Type 346 array.

Even much larger X-band radars, like AN/TPY-2 with 25,000 T/R elements can perform volume search. If such a radar was not capable of adjusting its beamwidth, it would have a very hard time performing that function with a pencil beam less than 0,5 degree wide and all of that at a range of 1000km which severely limits the number of pulses than can be emitted.


Here's a plot of the radiation pattern for a of 12 element linear active array. in this case, each element is emitting at maximum power (gain=1).
1626601965800.png
Now, if the gain of each transmitting element is adjusted, a very different radiation pattern can be generated. Here's an example of a radiation pattern with binomial weighting of gain per transmitter
1626602015600.png
With binomial weighting beamwidth is more than doubled and sidelobes virtually eliminated. The downside is that this halves the antenna efficiency.

Here's a table of beamwidths, sidelobes and antenna efficiencty, per gain weighting method. As you can see, it is possible to further extend the beamwidth, up to 27.7 degrees.
1626601901400.png
 
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iantsai

Junior Member
Registered Member
That’s BS,054APs are equipped with CM-302 which is the export version of YJ-12, don’t know about the new 054As ,but YJ-91 was always a airborne missile, it would be too small to be used on a frigate
My fault!

I meant YJ-12 and just typed YJ-91...
 
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