054/A FFG Thread II

[Gloire_bb]

WRT the T26's ASW role I was more thinking along the lines of it still managing to be a capable ASW ship while being rather large.

?!
Being large only helps.
Just look at Soviet large ASW destroyer series. Udaloy class stands at 7k standart, Udaloy II goes all the way up to 8.
ASW combatant, apart from sensor suite(which is bulky), needs to be able to reliably deploy, employ its sensor suite, weapons and helicopters at high seas. It is desireable to have second helicopter on board, and even better if both will be heavy. And so on.

Modern specialized ASW combatants are almost as large, too.

Spoiler: 1

Spoiler: 2

 

[Iron Man]

?!
Being large only helps.
Just look at Soviet large ASW destroyer series. Udaloy class stands at 7k standart, Udaloy II goes all the way up to 8.
ASW combatant, apart from sensor suite(which is bulky), needs to be able to reliably deploy, employ its sensor suite, weapons and helicopters at high seas. It is desireable to have second helicopter on board, and even better if both will be heavy. And so on.

Modern specialized ASW combatants are almost as large, too.

Spoiler: 1

View attachment 49293

Spoiler: 2

View attachment 49294

These are just FREMM class frigates repurposed for ASW. They were not designed from the ground up to be ASW. Nor are the obsolete Soviet products of a bygone era a suitable comparison to a modern ASW ship, which really needs only a few things in order to function as an ASW ship:
1) VDS/TAS
2) helo hangar, preferably 2
3) ASW missiles, though this is not really considered to be "needed" depending on the range/effectiveness of the missile

Of these the 054A+ has all three, though only one hangar; OTOH this class could easily have had 2 hangars judging from how the aft portion of the ships look. In fact the way I see it the only real things that a 054B could significantly improve upon compared to the 054A+ is improved medium range air defense (via an AESA MFR and maybe a new missile), an additional hangar, and maybe IEP, which could also possibly confer faster sprint speeds. None of these would require bulking up a ship design from 4,000t to 6,000t.

 

[Gloire_bb]

These are just FREMM class frigates repurposed for ASW. Nor are the obsolete Soviet products of a bygone era a suitable comparison to a modern ASW ship

FREMMs were designed with ASW mission in mind from keel up. And are definetely more capable in this regard than any chinese warship afloat, so you discarding them looks... strange?

Obsolete Soviet products...while obsolete indeed, in their respective area of hunting subs they're still more capable than most most modern "modern asw ships". Through sheer raw power and weight devoted to the mission.

which really needs only a few things in order to function as an ASW ship:
1) VDS/TAS
2) helo hangar, preferably 2
3) ASW missiles, though this is not really considered to be "needed" depending on the range/effectiveness of the missile

1, Not any VDS/TAS will force modern nuclear attack sub to be humble. On top of that, VDS/TAS only arrangement is fine only if you don't plan operating in shallow/confined environements.
2, Adding a couple of heavy asw helicopters is simple? Look at the picture above. These are NH90 and AW101-capable. Since China has no medium ASW helicopter, and, no offence, but aging light Z-9 are not a serious option. You are looking to house Z-18Fs, which are in aw101 class(i don't know if its tailboom is foldable, though).
Not nearly as simple to house them properly!
3.At least for 054a, it suffers from the same general problem as most Soviet combatants do: it has no serious facilities to store, service and operate small surface(or underwater) craft at any serious sea state, manned or unmanned.
For future ASW it is unaceptable. Of course, it will take significant volumes, too.
...and so on

 

[hkbc]

FREMMs were designed with ASW mission in mind from keel up. And are definetely more capable in this regard than any chinese warship afloat, so you discarding them looks... strange?

FREMMs were designed to be 'Multipurpose Frigates" FREMM is an abbreviation for 'Frégate européenne multi-mission' literally European Multi-Mission Frigate, with 3 variants one of which happened to be a ASW one.

Obsolete Soviet products...while obsolete indeed, in their respective area of hunting subs they're still more capable than most most modern "modern asw ships". Through sheer raw power and weight devoted to the mission.

In the cold war era the bulk of ASW Frigates were in the 3000-4000t range, even Soviet ones (Kirvak's 3500t 30+ built), effective sub hunting is not conferred by the size of the hull but the shape of the hull. You can argue that a large ASW ship is more effective than a smaller one but every Navy built more Frigate sized ones than Destroyer/Cruiser sized ones go figure!

1, Not any VDS/TAS will force modern nuclear attack sub to be humble. On top of that, VDS/TAS only arrangement is fine only if you don't plan operating in shallow/confined environements.

A large ship is less effective in shallow water and so is a nuclear sub besides you won't need a VDS in shallow water conflating facts doesn't make your point.

2, Adding a couple of heavy asw helicopters is simple? Look at the picture above. These are NH90 and AW101-capable. Since China has no medium ASW helicopter, and, no offence, but aging light Z-9 are not a serious option. You are looking to house Z-18Fs, which are in aw101 class(i don't know if its tailboom is foldable, though).
Not nearly as simple to house them properly!

Don't think Iron Man mentioned "heavy" with reference to helicopters just room to house 2, if a ASW vessel has effective sonar (TAS/VDS) then the role of the helicopter is to act as a long range delivery mechanism for weapons not as a self contained sensor, something that can be done with drone sized helos or ASW missiles in high sea states. Besides the Oliver Hazard Perry's managed room for a pair of sea hawks on a 4000t hull same number as a Spruance class destroyer that's twice the tonnage

End of the day if you have the man power a larger number of good enough ships confers advantages for any Navy. Putting all your eggs in a few super decked out vessels won't win the day just ask the crew of the Bismark, Graf Spee!

 

[gelgoog]

...
2, Adding a couple of heavy asw helicopters is simple? Look at the picture above. These are NH90 and AW101-capable. Since China has no medium ASW helicopter, and, no offence, but aging light Z-9 are not a serious option. You are looking to house Z-18Fs, which are in aw101 class(i don't know if its tailboom is foldable, though).
...

This will change quickly. There is the Z-20 (Black Hawk clone), and the Z-15. Both are medium utility helicopters which can be adapted to the ASW role once they get into production. Even then though the Chinese will still have a weakness in heavy helicopters (their triple engine ones are kinda obsolete), and their existing helicopter engines are underpowered.

 

[Tam]

The 500

Tweet by @dafengcao

Magazine scan of Xianning

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[watdahek]

Unknown ship appear in HP shipyard via fzgfzy, possibly 054A or B. Also mentions advancements in Chinese domestic LCAC.

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[asif iqbal]

Pakistan Type 054A ?

LCAC? Not another one

 

[Tam]

Frigate 550 Weifang transitioned in the Strait of Tsushima along with a Y-9JZ.

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[asif iqbal]

China needs to start using air and surface assets in synergy

Also along with 2nd artillery corps

Modern battlefield is integrated