054/A FFG Thread II

[Scyth]

fantastic post indeed, i wish that in any other thread ppl would present their arguments as clear as you did. looking forward to see more comparisons if you are going to make them.

 

[Londo Molari]

I love the pictures showing the CIWS firing arcs.

 

[tphuang]

Very good posts, looks like you really did your home work. A lot of this stuff is really subjective. It's never easy to argue which one is better than other per se.

Without even looking at the comparisons, I would also say Takanami is class of the field.

The things you really can't compare are the sensors. In that regard, Formidable is clearly better than KDX-1 and Taiwan La Fayette. I would put it right up there with 054A as the best one. And even in anti-shipping, it's hard to imagine HF-3 being able to use it's range, because who is going to provide targeting? That's when obvious parameters like range and speed can't compare anything. The other thing is the number of channels in air defense, system reaction time and such.

 

[planeman]

Cheers for all the positive feedback guys

Very good posts, looks like you really did your home work. A lot of this stuff is really subjective. It's never easy to argue which one is better than other per se.

Without even looking at the comparisons, I would also say Takanami is class of the field.

Yeah on paper it looks that way although it's also the biggest by quite a bit.

The things you really can't compare are the sensors. In that regard, Formidable is clearly better than KDX-1 and Taiwan La Fayette. I would put it right up there with 054A as the best one. And even in anti-shipping, it's hard to imagine HF-3 being able to use it's range, because who is going to provide targeting? That's when obvious parameters like range and speed can't compare anything. The other thing is the number of channels in air defense, system reaction time and such.

Yeah if you look at the last table I've brushed on sensors. There simply isn't enough data (or patience) for a fuller comparison except to say that Formidable is clearly the most "modern" on a conceptual level. Type-054A isn't far behind but more in quantity than refinement, and you can bet the JMSDF systems are top notch also.

For targeting the Cheng Kung has two helicopters vs the Type-054A's one. Now we could get into scenarios, and yes ROC has a challenge facing the whole PLAN, but no doubt in my mind that in isolation the HF-II and HF-III are the best SSM mix of the bunch (plus up to 40 SM-1s!!!!); the Cheng Kung has been modernised with a bias to Anti-ship which none of the others have. Whereas the Cheng Kung definitely loses ground elsewhere and all classes have a potent anti-ship punch. PLAN has other warships that far better address the Anti-ship role so no big loss for PLAN in the wider context. But this comparison isn't about the wider context

 

[tphuang]

For targeting the Cheng Kung has two helicopters vs the Type-054A's one. Now we could get into scenarios, and yes ROC has a challenge facing the whole PLAN, but no doubt in my mind that in isolation the HF-II and HF-III are the best SSM mix of the bunch (plus up to 40 SM-1s!!!!); the Cheng Kung has been modernised with a bias to Anti-ship which none of the others have. Whereas the Cheng Kung definitely loses ground elsewhere and all classes have a potent anti-ship punch. PLAN has other warships that far better address the Anti-ship role so no big loss for PLAN in the wider context. But this comparison isn't about the wider context

Those are two helicopters that will be shot down pretty fast in a war scenario. I will ignore Sea Soul and other sea target search function here. HF-II's anti-ship version is behind Harpoon, Exocet and YJ-83s. When you are talking about HF-III, it comes down to whether you believe supersonic missiles are that much superior. Certainly, we've all discussed the pros and cons of these.

 

[planeman]

You're falling into the scenarios trap. My analysis is deliberately high level. I have for example avoided attempting to determine whether Harpoon is better than YJ-83 etc etc. They are both generically the same thing, probably about the same potency in the great scheme of things.

I know that you have strong convictions re Taiwanese SSMs. I don't agree with your views about the inferiority of dual-guidance, and supersonics.

At the end of the day ROC upgraded OHP presents a much more flexible offensive profile than the others in anti-ship.

 

[tphuang]

You're falling into the scenarios trap. My analysis is deliberately high level. I have for example avoided attempting to determine whether Harpoon is better than YJ-83 etc etc. They are both generically the same thing, probably about the same potency in the great scheme of things.

I know that you have strong convictions re Taiwanese SSMs. I don't agree with your views about the inferiority of dual-guidance, and supersonics.

At the end of the day ROC upgraded OHP presents a much more flexible offensive profile than the others in anti-ship.

Just think about it this way, Exocet, Harpoon and C-802 all have plenty of sales around the world, HF-2 has nothing. What does that tell you? In general, Anti-shipping on these boats are pretty much a wash.

I'm not saying supersonic is inferior or superior, but that something isn't superior just because it's faster.

 

[Kongo]

HF-2 has nothing.

That's because China would have squealed in protest at the customer.

 

[Londo Molari]

Many nations, including the US, "squeal" whenever China sells arms too, but that doesn't stop people from buying. I doubt China has more influence than the US.

 

[AssassinsMace]

At least China can say their anti-ship missiles have a good track record in actual combat situations and against advanced defenses.