052C/052D Class Destroyers

Janiz said:

I bet Chinese admirals aren't as optomistic as you blitzo.

We don't have a tiny scrap of informations about Chinese capabilities but we know well what Korean and Japanese ships present from their training with US Navy at least. All of that talk is nonsense. If you add up numbers you'll get that those chinese numbers you proposed are enough to balance Japanese and Korean capabilities, let alone US or the next 2 DDG Japan is going to build in the few coming years.

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Well in my case I am speaking in relation to ROKN and JMSDF only, in a separate fashion. I did not mention USN.

And I'm not sure what nonsense you're talking about; do you mean training, hardware, the number of ships I mention, or all three?
Because the word "outgun" is very much a superficial, hardware and number oriented word to begin with.

We do have a fairly accurate projection of what kind of numbers we're going to see, and we have quite a few pieces of information regarding the Chinese ships, and we can make quite educated guesses as to the capabilities of the ships mentioned or simply count them (for instance in the case of VLS). I also do use the word "mature" -- that is to say, when those ships and their subsystems have become reliable and well tested (in the same way that one wouldn't expect USS Zumwalt to have FOC the moment it is commissioned).
Training is definitely the most fickle matter, but that was not much of a relevant point.

Of course you're free to disagree.

All that said, franklin is right in saying that 055 will be the big stick of the PLAN's surface combatants once they enter service.; their surface combatant capital ships, if you will.

While 6 052Cs and 1 052D atm isn't too shabby, they are still somewhat limited among the overall PLAN order of battle, and offer rare capabilities (via their radars, sensors, datalinking, command and SAMs) that provide them a special status as the PLAN's "capital ships". In a similar vein, the aegis ships of ROKN and JMSDF currently hold a similar capital ship status among their respective navies due to their limited number and also how much extra capability they provide relative to other non aegis ships.

By the time 055 enters service (probably around 2020 as well), they will spiritually succeed 052C/Ds as the new "capital ship" for the same reasons that 052C/D hold that status in PLAN today. There will be enough 052C/Ds by 2020 that their capabilities won't be as rare anymore, while 055 will also offer capabilities that 052C/D will not compete with.

Bltizo said:

All that said, franklin is right in saying that 055 will be the big stick of the PLAN's surface combatants once they enter service.; their surface combatant capital ships, if you will.

While 6 052Cs and 1 052D atm isn't too shabby, they are still somewhat limited among the overall PLAN order of battle, and offer rare capabilities (via their radars, sensors, datalinking, command and SAMs) that provide them a special status as the PLAN's "capital ships".

In a similar vein, the aegis ships of ROKN and JMSDF currently hold a similar capital ship status among their respective navies due to their limited number and also how much extra capability they provide relative to other non aegis ships.

By the time 055 enters service (probably around 2020 as well), they will spiritually succeed 052C/Ds as the new "capital ship" for the same reasons that 052C/D hold that status in PLAN today. There will be enough 052C/Ds by 2020 that their capabilities won't be as rare anymore, while 055 will also offer capabilities that 052C/D will not compete with.

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Six Type 052Cs and eight or more Type 052Ds by 2020 will be a powerful force in and of themselves.

Ultimately you will probably have a total of 18 Type 052C/D DDGs...and that will be nothing to take lightly for any nation.

When you add another eight or more Type 055 DDGs into that mix...as I said before, next to the US Navy you will have the largest single nation Destroyer force out there.

Add the probably 24 or more FFGs, and you end up with a total of 50 very modern, very capable surface combatant (not including what will probably be over 40 Type 056 vessels).

At that point the PLAN will be as large, as modern, and perhaps as capable in terms of pure weaponry and electronics (though perhaps not in terms of overall experience) as the ROKN and the JMSDF combined.

At that time frame, the ROKN will have perhaps 6 Se Jong class. The JMSDF will have four Atago and four Kongo class, plus another five Akizukis. Together, they will have about 20 heavy destroyers and the PLAN at that point will have 26. (Actually more if you include the Type 052Bs the Type 052, Type 051C, and the Sovs...but I am really talking their principal DDGs here).

Of course then the elephant in the room will still be the US Navy who will have at or over 90 CGs and DDGs combined in that time frame.

Anyway you cut it though...the Type 052C/D and Type 055 Combo is going to be a very powerful and capable combination for the PLAN.

If we compare ships of similar displacement, PLAN ships from corvettes on up are usually underarmed in some manner compared to ones serving with any number of navies, both Western/US and Russian technology based. The PLAN ships tend to have fewer CIWS', SAM's, or multi-purpose missile/VLS count. I think this is a cost and/or propulsion compromise which will prove costly in actual combat.

The PLAN continues to play catch up technologically, in numbers, and in training. The PLAN's numbers do not add up against the combined forces of the ROKN and JMSDF when considering all combatants, not even counting the USN. The naval air power balance is even more against the PLAN. This is in addition to China's disadvantageous naval geography having its entire coastline boxed in. When examined in context I think even by 2020 the PLAN can only guarantee to be a competitive force in combat either within range of Chinese shore based support or against lone third tier navies if far from China.

I believe that the 054A (and 054A+) is the latest PLAN combatant design where no serious compromises were made. The previous one was the 053H3 and we will see if the 055 will be the next one.

PanAsian said:

If we compare ships of similar displacement, PLAN ships have fewer CIWS', SAM's, or multi-purpose missile/VLS count. I think this is a cost and/or propulsion compromise which will prove costly in actual combat.

The PLAN's numbers do not add up against the combined forces of the ROKN and JMSDF when considering all combatants.

I believe that the 054A (and 054A+) is the latest PLAN combatant design where no serious compromises were made. The previous one was the 053H3 and we will see if the 055 will be the next one.

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The Type 052Ds have 64 VLS cells. The Type 055s will have at least 112, and perhaps 128.

Yes the Se Jongs and the Atagos and the Kongos have more missiles individually, but they are are not going to be as many of those ships either...a total of 14 of them in the 2020s..

There is little doubt in the naval circles today that the Type 052C, the Type 052Ds and the Type 055s are very competitive and capable designs and they will not be taken lightly.

The PLAN will have 26 of these vessels in the 2020s. ROKN and JMSDF will have 19 comparable vessels (when you include the Akizuki class).

Yes, all these nations have numerous smaller vessels too...but with the Type 054s and the other PLAN DDGs (which are all being modernized) we see a similar comparison in terms of numbers, throw weight and overall capabilities.

Now, the ROKN and the JMSDF, have a much longer history of very intensive exercises and training in the Blue Water with peer navies and this counts for A LOT.

Also, they have stronger Maritime Patrol aircraft right now, and experience with them...and probably extending into the 2020s which will also count for a lot.

But as a result of their professionalism and the realities of the numbers of these new vessels and the PLAN's current training regiment, they will not take anything for granted.


Now, as I said before...the 900 pound gorilla in the room through all of this will be the US Navy and its massive numbers of major surface combatants (AEGIS DDGs and Cruisers) and its naval air arm from the carriers.

the number of total VLS cells that a fleet holds is not the main determinant of a fleet's combat capabilities. And also I don't think the PLAN ships have noticeably less SAMs, VLSs than other naval ships of comparable size. Type 045 is larger than 052D, but has fewer VLS and will probably carry fewer missiles. At the same time, that does not make Type 045 a inferior surface combatants. Type 052D can carry 32 long range missiles, 8 LACMs, 8 AShMs, 8 ASROC and 32 quad-packed medium range missiles. To me, that's plenty of fire power for a ship of its size.

PanAsian said:

If we compare ships of similar displacement, PLAN ships from corvettes on up are usually underarmed in some manner compared to ones serving with any number of navies, both Western/US and Russian technology based. The PLAN ships tend to have fewer CIWS', SAM's, or multi-purpose missile/VLS count. I think this is a cost and/or propulsion compromise which will prove costly in actual combat.

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Wait, what?

Let's do a quick review:

• 056 is 1400 tons full load, with 4 AShM, 1 76mm gun, 1x8 missile CIWS SAM, 2x30mm autocannon
• 054A is slightly over 4000 tons full load, with 32 VLS and 8 AShM, 1 76mm gun, 2x30mm CIWS
• 052C is estimated to be 7000 tons full load, with 48 VLS and 8 AShM, 1 100mm gun, 2x30mm CIWS
• 052D is estimated to be 7500-8000 tons full load with 64 VLS, 1 130mm gun, 1x30mm CIWS and 1x24 missile CIWS SAM

So if we compare each displacement class with its international peers:

• 056: The only similar ships in displacement to 056 is the Sigma class 9113, which features 8 AShMs, 1 76mm gun, 2x4 CIWS SAM, and 2x30mm autocannons -- and 9113 is actually 200 tons heavier than 056. Even the German K130 corvette is 1840 tons full displacement, so 400 tons heavier than the 056 and its "extra armament" relative to 056 is two 21 cell RAM launchers. The Russian Stereguschy class features more advanced CIWS, more AShM and VLS, a 100mm gun, but remember it is over 2000 tons full displacement.
• 054A: Surface combatants in the world which are 4000+ tons displacement include OHP, Formidable/La Fayette class, Talwar class. 054A compares favourably to all of them in armament. Yes, 054A's VLS is limited to HHQ-16 and VLASROC and are unable to quad pack SAMs like ESSM, but that's a limitation of its VLS rather than something we can attribute to the ship itself.
• 052C/D: the only modern ship classes that sits comfortably in this weight class would be Type 45 and Horizon (sovremenny can be included if you want, but it's far from a modern ship). Burkes and their derivatives are at least 1000 tons heavier, while Eurofrigates are up to 1000 tons lighter. And 052C/D again compare quite favourably to Type 45 and Horizon in armament as well. 052C has the same number of VLS and AShM total as Horizon, while Type 45 is equipped for but not with Harpoons. 052D of course has more VLS than the total VLS+AShM count for both Horizon and Type 45.

So really I'm not sure why you believe that PLAN ships have less armament than their counter parts of the same displacement. In fact PLAN surface combatants hold different displacement categories compared to the USN's major surface combatants. Their current destroyers are 7000-8000 ton full rather than 9000+ ton full for Burkes. Similarly, 056s are 1400 tons and 054As 4000+ tons which do not correspond with the LCS's full displacement of 3000 tons

And finally, like tphuang said, armament alone does not determine the combat capability of a ship. The quality of weapons, the sensors, and combat management system are all as important as the number of missiles or variety of CIWS which is carried.

Jeff Head said:

Six Type 052Cs and eight or more Type 052Ds by 2020 will be a powerful force in and of themselves.

Ultimately you will probably have a total of 18 Type 052C/D DDGs...and that will be nothing to take lightly for any nation.

When you add another eight or more Type 055 DDGs into that mix...as I said before, next to the US Navy you will have the largest single nation Destroyer force out there.

Add the probably 24 or more FFGs, and you end up with a total of 50 very modern, very capable surface combatant (not including what will probably be over 40 Type 056 vessels).

At that point the PLAN will be as large, as modern, and perhaps as capable in terms of pure weaponry and electronics (though perhaps not in terms of overall experience) as the ROKN and the JMSDF combined.

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There are two big questions important to the PLAN's projected surface combatant fleet imo.
One is their build rate.
The second is what their final critical mass count of ships will end at.

Currently they are averaging 7 056s, 1-2 054As, and 2 052Ds a year. If we have no idea what kind of end game orbat the PLAN wants, then this is our best estimate for trying to project the overall count of PLAN surface combatants up to the forseeable future.
But the second question is much more important of course. A current 1-2 054A build rate means nothing if production finishes after the 24th unit in a year; so naturally we'll need to consider if the PLAN will seek to introduce a new serial production frigate class to supplement the 054As anytime soon or if they'll only build a new frigate class in a few decades' time once the 054As need to be replaced.

But by 2020 I do expect all 24 054As to be commissioned, with the 18 052C/Ds commissioned, and 1 or 2 055s as well.
I have no idea where 056 production will end up. There are rumours we might see a total count of over 60 056s once things are said and done. Certainly by 2020 I expect several dozen 056s to be in service, which isn't very far off considering 19 056s are already commissioned even today.

At that time frame, the ROKN will have perhaps 6 Se Jong class. The JMSDF will have four Atago and four Kongo class, plus another five Akizukis. Together, they will have about 20 heavy destroyers and the PLAN at that point will have 26. (Actually more if you include the Type 052Bs the Type 052, Type 051C, and the Sovs...but I am really talking their principal DDGs here).

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I've been waiting for ROKN and JMSDF to announce additional aegis ships, however I haven't seen any firm commitment to new ships as of yet. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.
I'm aware ROKN have an option for 3 additional Sejongs, however DSME seems to be offering an 8000 ton 64 VLS KDDX option as well?
I also expect JMSDF to have more aegis ships lined up to supplement their current six, and there was noise a while ago about two new Atagos joining the fleet 2020-2021, but not much since that.

Of course then the elephant in the room will still be the US Navy who will have at or over 90 CGs and DDGs combined in that time frame.

Anyway you cut it though...the Type 052C/D and Type 055 Combo is going to be a very powerful and capable combination for the PLAN.

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The thing to watch, imo, is how much bigger the PLAN's surface combatants numbers will continue to grow.
I say this, because chances are the USN won't dramatically increase their CG/DDG numbers, and new ships built will offer an evolutionary increase in capability versus their predecessors (for instance Burke IIIs offering improved evolutionary capabilities versus say, any Ticos that they replace). OTOH, the PLAN will be replacing old 051 luda destroyers with 052Ds, which is a much more revolutionary improvement in capability, relatively speaking, and we also don't know whether the PLAN are planning to increase their absolute number of surface combatants as well.

That said, the USN will definitely maintain the world's largest fleet of large destroyers/cruisers for decades to come.

Bltizo said:

So if we compare each displacement class with its international peers:

• 056: The only similar ships in displacement to 056 is the Sigma class 9113, which features 8 AShMs, 1 76mm gun, 2x4 CIWS SAM, and 2x30mm autocannons -- and 9113 is actually 200 tons heavier than 056.

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Whoops, I meant to say Sigma 9113 has 4 AShMs, not 8. Of course that only demonstrates my point further; the slightly bigger Sigma 9113 has virtually the same armament as the smaller 056.

@Blitzo
I do note that your examples are European ships. PLAN ships do compare well against European ships, but they are not the ships that PLAN need to match against. It's illustrative that all nations that has ships with 90+ VLS cells are bordering Pacific, and neighboring China.

While the capability of ships do not wholly depend on the number of VLS cells, it does play a big part in it. While the capability of ships to handle saturation attack may be roughly equal, the sustaining power of the PLAN ships is less simply due to that PLAN ships are going to use up their missiles earlier.