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052C/052D Class Destroyers
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
The numbers of 055s are not confirmed. I assume the 1st and 9th divisions will share the 8 055s, not matter what number they are given.
Their pennants should reflect that when the time comes. The 055 pennants for the 9th division should be 176, 177, 178 and 179, assuming they are not given to 052DL past the 25th.
055 does not follow the same rule, like the 055 for North fleet starts from 101. If you are right, the first 055 should have a pennant number 119 or 120. The 055s for South Fleet may start from 181, or just continue after the North fleet, having 105 106 107 108.Their pennants should reflect that when the time comes. The 055 pennants for the 9th division should be 176, 177, 178 and 179, assuming they are not given to 052DL past the 25th.
176, 177, 178 and 179 will be reserved for 052-series of 9th division.
As far as I understanding, the destroyer of PLAN is classified two level, 1 large destroyer, the commander is vice division or brigade level. 2 destroyer, the commander is regiment level.
For the pennant numbers of regiment level destroyers
131-139 belong to 3rd division
150-159 6rd division
161-169 2rd division
170-179 9rd division
119-129 10rd division
101-??? are for the large destroyers
055 does not follow the same rule, like the 055 for North fleet starts from 101. If you are right, the first 055 should have a pennant number 119 or 120. The 055s for South Fleet may start from 181, or just continue after the North fleet, having 105 106 107 108.
Except 119 and 120 are already taken up by NSF Type 052D destroyers, Guiyang and Chengdu, and these pennants may already have been reserved prior to 101.
176, 177, 178 and 179 will be reserved for 052-series of 9th division.
As far as I understanding, the destroyer of PLAN is classified two level, 1 large destroyer, the commander is vice division or brigade level. 2 destroyer, the commander is regiment level.
For the pennant numbers of regiment level destroyers
131-139 belong to 3rd division
150-159 6rd division
161-169 2rd division
170-179 9rd division
119-129 10rd division
101-??? are for the large destroyers
Does not make sense because you are limiting large destroyers to only 10.
What is clear is that the pennants wrap around after they reach --9, they go back to --1.
After pennant 139, which is Ningbo, a Sovremenny with the 3rd, the next pennant would be 131, which is given the Type 052D destroyer Taiyuan for the 3rd.
After pennant 169, which is Wuhan, a Type 052D with the 2nd, the next pennant would be 161, which ended up being Type 052D destroyer Hohhot.
So who does 101 Nanchang belong to? Its based in Qingdao, which is the home base of the 1st Destroyer Division. You forgot to include its numbers.
112 Harbin
113 Qingdao
115 Shenyang
116 Shijiazhuang
Then they get its first 052D destroyer, which is 117 Xining, followed by 118 Urumqi which is 052D. I'm still not completely certain if 119 Guiyang is 1st or 10th. If 117 and 118 are already reserved for 052D, it would wrap around back to 01.
Look at the history of all previous ships of the 1st Destroyer Division.
Anshan class, previous Gnevny class
101 Anshan
102 Fushun
103 Changchun
104 Taiyuan
Luda class
105 Jinan
106 Xian
107 Yinchuan
108 Xining
109 Kaifeng
110 Dalian
111 is missing, but after that you get to the 052 era with 112 and 113, 114 is missing then you get to the 051C era with 115 and 116.
Its consistent.
Other Ludas.
131 Nanjing
132 Heifei
133 Chonging
134 Zunyu
They were in the 3rd DD ESF. For some reason 135 is skipped, and 136 to 139 are given to the Sovremenny that went to this unit.
161 Changsha
162 Nanning
163 Nanchang
165 Zhanjiang
166 Zhuhai
They were in the 2nd DD SSF. 167 Shenzhen (051B), 168 Guangzhou (052B) and 169 Wuhan (052B) came next after this.
Once the Ludas were retired, the pennants and names are free to be reused again.
The original three destroyer squadrons of the PLAN was the 1st, the 2nd and the 3rd. That's why the Ludas were numbered 10X, 16X and 13X respectively.
When the 052C Lanzhou came, it was given 170, and back then it seemed easy to assume that 170 was chosen because it succeeded 169 Wuhan, and the 170 Lanzhou was stationed in the South China Sea. Then it became clearer this is an new destroyer division, the 9th, and after 171, received the first 052D, 172. At this point, the 9th seemed to be like an all new destroyer division created purposely for the 052C/D ships, and no older ship had the 17X pennants.
The next four 052C was formed into a new destroyer group, the 6th. Like the 9th, there were no previous ships that had the 15X pennant numbers. This reinforced the view that 052C/D ships have their exclusive squadrons.
But when 117 Xining came, that broke the idea of 052C/D being exclusive to special destroyer groups. 117 was an addition to a squadron that was filled with older ships, namely the 052 112 Harbin, 113 Qingdao, and 051C 115 Shenyang and 116 Shijiazhuang. Then you have 161 Hohhot going to another squadron with older ships, 167, 168 and 169, which just recently retired Ludas 165 and 166. And 131 Taiyuan goes to the 3rd, which are Sovremennys with retired Ludas.
In any case, the PLAN never broke its pennant rule with the destroyers that the middle digit represents both region and destroyer fleet, the first digit "1" says its a destroyer, and the last digit the serial.
I have two theories for 101 to 108 Type 055s. The first is that all 8 ships are going to be stationed at Qingdao with the 1st. Liaoning and Shandong will be stationed at Qingdao, and all 8 ships are tasked in protecting them, perhaps in rotations with different deployments and maintenance. But the idea that 101 to 108 will be serving separately distributed in all three different fleets, I don't think so. Either they will all serve with the Northern fleet, or not all these 8 ships will have pennants that begin with "10".
Given that the 9th is not getting any new 052DL, 176 to 179 might be reserved for future 055 that maybe deployed to Hainan. That is unless, more 052DL is being built, bringing the total 052D past the 25th total, and these will take the 176 to 179 numbers if some are passed to the 9th.
The second is that 101 to 109 maybe reserved for the 055, but "0" still signifies that this is a North Sea squadron. For the East and South China seas, two other sets of 10 numbers each will be reserved. But 055 ships headed for these fleets will not be 10X. Instead of going to the 9th, a brand new squadron will be made for the South China Sea exclusive to the 055, and it will use the pennant 18X (180 to 189). On the East China Sea, another 055 only squadron will be made, and it will use the pennant range 14X (140 to 149).
If 055s will be assigned to existing squadrons in the East and South China Seas, either they will take up respective numbers like 17X, 16X, 13X, and 15X in vacant slots of existing squadrons, or they will be in all new exclusive squadrons, possibly 14X in the ESF and 18X in the SSF.
When the 052C Lanzhou came, it was given 170, and back then it seemed easy to assume that 170 was chosen because it succeeded 169 Wuhan, and the 170 Lanzhou was stationed in the South China Sea. Then it became clearer this is an new destroyer division, the 9th, and after 171, received the first 052D, 172. At this point, the 9th seemed to be like an all new destroyer division created purposely for the 052C/D ships, and no older ship had the 17X pennants.
The next four 052C was formed into a new destroyer group, the 6th. Like the 9th, there were no previous ships that had the 15X pennant numbers. This reinforced the view that 052C/D ships have their exclusive squadrons.
But when 117 Xining came, that broke the idea of 052C/D being exclusive to special destroyer groups. 117 was an addition to a squadron that was filled with older ships, namely the 052 112 Harbin, 113 Qingdao, and 051C 115 Shenyang and 116 Shijiazhuang. Then you have 161 Hohhot going to another squadron with older ships, 167, 168 and 169, which just recently retired Ludas 165 and 166. And 131 Taiyuan goes to the 3rd, which are Sovremennys with retired Ludas.
In any case, the PLAN never broke its pennant rule with the destroyers that the middle digit represents both region and destroyer fleet, the first digit "1" says its a destroyer, and the last digit the serial.
I have two theories for 101 to 108 Type 055s. The first is that all 8 ships are going to be stationed at Qingdao with the 1st. Liaoning and Shandong will be stationed at Qingdao, and all 8 ships are tasked in protecting them, perhaps in rotations with different deployments and maintenance. But the idea that 101 to 108 will be serving separately distributed in all three different fleets, I don't think so. Either they will all serve with the Northern fleet, or not all these 8 ships will have pennants that begin with "10".
Given that the 9th is not getting any new 052DL, 176 to 179 might be reserved for future 055 that maybe deployed to Hainan. That is unless, more 052DL is being built, bringing the total 052D past the 25th total, and these will take the 176 to 179 numbers if some are passed to the 9th.
The second is that 101 to 109 maybe reserved for the 055, but "0" still signifies that this is a North Sea squadron. For the East and South China seas, two other sets of 10 numbers each will be reserved. But 055 ships headed for these fleets will not be 10X. Instead of going to the 9th, a brand new squadron will be made for the South China Sea exclusive to the 055, and it will use the pennant 18X (180 to 189). On the East China Sea, another 055 only squadron will be made, and it will use the pennant range 14X (140 to 149).
If 055s will be assigned to existing squadrons in the East and South China Seas, either they will take up respective numbers like 17X, 16X, 13X, and 15X in vacant slots of existing squadrons, or they will be in all new exclusive squadrons, possibly 14X in the ESF and 18X in the SSF.
The original three destroyer squadrons of the PLAN was the 1st, the 2nd and the 3rd. That's why the Ludas were numbered 10X, 16X and 13X respectively.
When the 052C Lanzhou came, it was given 170, and back then it seemed easy to assume that 170 was chosen because it succeeded 169 Wuhan, and the 170 Lanzhou was stationed in the South China Sea. Then it became clearer this is an new destroyer division, the 9th, and after 171, received the first 052D, 172. At this point, the 9th seemed to be like an all new destroyer division created purposely for the 052C/D ships, and no older ship had the 17X pennants.
The next four 052C was formed into a new destroyer group, the 6th. Like the 9th, there were no previous ships that had the 15X pennant numbers. This reinforced the view that 052C/D ships have their exclusive squadrons.
But when 117 Xining came, that broke the idea of 052C/D being exclusive to special destroyer groups. 117 was an addition to a squadron that was filled with older ships, namely the 052 112 Harbin, 113 Qingdao, and 051C 115 Shenyang and 116 Shijiazhuang. Then you have 161 Hohhot going to another squadron with older ships, 167, 168 and 169, which just recently retired Ludas 165 and 166. And 131 Taiyuan goes to the 3rd, which are Sovremennys with retired Ludas.
In any case, the PLAN never broke its pennant rule with the destroyers that the middle digit represents both region and destroyer fleet, the first digit "1" says its a destroyer, and the last digit the serial.
Your are correct with the history of PLAN, they assigned 101-129 to NSF, 130-159 to ESF, and 160-199 to SSF, but things are changing now. Seems they are assigning the numbers to divisons now, 12X to 10th division, 13X to 3rd, 15X for 6th, 16X for 2nd, and 17X for 9th.
Except 119 and 120 are already taken up by NSF Type 052D destroyers, Guiyang and Chengdu, and these pennants may already have been reserved prior to 101.
Does not make sense because you are limiting large destroyers to only 10.
What is clear is that the pennants wrap around after they reach --9, they go back to --1.
After pennant 139, which is Ningbo, a Sovremenny with the 3rd, the next pennant would be 131, which is given the Type 052D destroyer Taiyuan for the 3rd.
After pennant 169, which is Wuhan, a Type 052D with the 2nd, the next pennant would be 161, which ended up being Type 052D destroyer Hohhot.
So who does 101 Nanchang belong to? Its based in Qingdao, which is the home base of the 1st Destroyer Division. You forgot to include its numbers.
112 Harbin
113 Qingdao
115 Shenyang
116 Shijiazhuang
Then they get its first 052D destroyer, which is 117 Xining, followed by 118 Urumqi which is 052D. I'm still not completely certain if 119 Guiyang is 1st or 10th. If 117 and 118 are already reserved for 052D, it would wrap around back to 01.
Look at the history of all previous ships of the 1st Destroyer Division.
Anshan class, previous Gnevny class
101 Anshan
102 Fushun
103 Changchun
104 Taiyuan
Luda class
105 Jinan
106 Xian
107 Yinchuan
108 Xining
109 Kaifeng
110 Dalian
111 is missing, but after that you get to the 052 era with 112 and 113, 114 is missing then you get to the 051C era with 115 and 116.
Its consistent.
1st division is using the 11X numbers now, but it is different with others. 1st division is the first destroyer division in PLAN, actually the only one at that time, has a special status, plue it shares the same homeport with Liaoning and future carriers, so I assume it won't be assigned any new destroyers but large destroyers in the future.
The second is that 101 to 109 maybe reserved for the 055, but "0" still signifies that this is a North Sea squadron. For the East and South China seas, two other sets of 10 numbers each will be reserved. But 055 ships headed for these fleets will not be 10X. Instead of going to the 9th, a brand new squadron will be made for the South China Sea exclusive to the 055, and it will use the pennant 18X (180 to 189). On the East China Sea, another 055 only squadron will be made, and it will use the pennant range 14X (140 to 149).
If 055s will be assigned to existing squadrons in the East and South China Seas, either they will take up respective numbers like 17X, 16X, 13X, and 15X in vacant slots of existing squadrons, or they will be in all new exclusive squadrons, possibly 14X in the ESF and 18X in the SSF.
I partially agree with this part, IMO, no new destroyer divisions will be built, but large destroyers will use different pennant number range, 10X for large destroyers in NSF, 14X for ESF, and 18X for SSF.
112 and 113 will retire soon, so NSF will have 101-114 14 numbers for large destroyer, SSF have 180-199 20 number, very enough for future use.
The first batch 055 belongs to 1st and 9th divisions for sure. I assume they are 101-104 and 181-184, or 101-108.
I'm still not completely certain if 119 Guiyang is 1st or 10th.
119 and 120 are originally assigned to 1st division, but transferred to 10th before be in active service. Very weird but 100% sure.
Your are correct with the history of PLAN, they assigned 101-129 to NSF, 130-159 to ESF, and 160-199 to SSF, but things are changing now. Seems they are assigning the numbers to divisons now, 12X to 10th division, 13X to 3rd, 15X for 6th, 16X for 2nd, and 17X for 9th.
Not sure if you got my point that the 6th (15X) and the 9th (17X) were created purposely for the 052C/D destroyers only.
If you have a new class of ship it makes sense to group all the sisters together in one organization and base for the purposes of logistics and maintenance. When you have different classes of ships within a division that will be a headache. You see this in practice when they threw all four of the second batch 052C into one group, and all the Sovremenny into one group. You can also see pairs like 052B and 051C are in the same division.
At least that was the original idea.
Somewhere along the way, they decided to bunk this idea and throw the 052D into squadrons with old ships, starting with 117. The ships will be used as a "seed" to train crew and maintenance, and build logistical structures, which can open the gate for more 052D to reach these older formations.
1st division is using the 11X numbers now, but it is different with others. 1st division is the first destroyer division in PLAN, actually the only one at that time, has a special status, plue it shares the same homeport with Liaoning and future carriers, so I assume it won't be assigned any new destroyers but large destroyers in the future.
It is not a now. Its been a while. First ship with 11X was 110 Dalian. And then you have 112 Harbin and 113 Qingdao. These are not new ships. That's like 30 years ago.
I partially agree with this part, IMO, no new destroyer divisions will be built, but large destroyers will use different pennant number range, 10X for large destroyers in NSF, 14X for ESF, and 18X for SSF.
112 and 113 will retire soon, so NSF will have 101-114 14 numbers for large destroyer, SSF have 180-199 20 number, very enough for future use.
The first batch 055 belongs to 1st and 9th divisions for sure. I assume they are 101-104 and 181-184, or 101-108.
I am not sure if change in the middle digit 1X1 will result in change of divisional command. This can mean increasing the workload in the existing hierarchy, so I am not certain if they will retain the existing structure, modify the hierarchy or create new divisions. That's up to the Chinese Navy.
119 and 120 are originally assigned to 1st division, but transferred to 10th before be in active service. Very weird but 100% sure.
We still have incomplete data. For now until the paint to mark the pennant on the ships are dry, 102 to 108 remains a speculation.
For now, all up to the 25th Type 052D has been accounted for, and they are going to the 10th, the 2nd, and the 3rd. In fact, all but one of the 052D/DL built in Dalian have/will be going to the 10th.
If the 1st and the 9th is to get more 052D, then the production of the 052D will have to be extended past the 25 units.
Right now the 9th, which is in Hainan, has no 052DL coming for it. The future 052DL from Jiangnan are headed to the 2nd in Zhanjiang.
That does not seem right for me if a carrier is ported in Hainan, which is the only one of two naval bases in China that can hold a carrier. In fact, one of the Type 901 is already assigned to Hainan. Given that the South China Seas has been rowdy lately, the most modern ship there right now is the 161 Hohhot which is based on Zhanjiang with the 2nd. Another issue is that I expect the two 075 to be assigned in Zhanjiang with the South Fleet.
After 161 Hohhot, three 052DL is coming to the South; 162 and 164 from Jiangnan and 163 from Dalian. All assigned with the 2nd at Zhanjiang which is in need of new ships --- their only new ship and 052D is 161 Hohhot, the rest are old ships that are refitted or yet to be refitted like 167 Shenzhen, 168 Guangzhou and 169 Wuhan. With 075 likely coming there to Zhanjiang and some 071 are based there, there is certainly a need to upgrade the destroyers stationed in Zhanjiang.
This leaves us back to the 9th. So to upgrade the fleet in Hainan, you need to be producing more 055 and 052DL, past the number what we have already counted in the shipyards. You have two propositions here. All 8 055 stay in Qingdao and gets numbered 101 to 108, and another four 055 will be built for the South China Seas fleet. The second proposition is that some of the eight will go to SSF and assigned to the 9th and in which case, these ships are not going to be numbered 10X but maybe 17X or 18X. In addition to both of these propositions, there is possibility more 052DL or even "052E" will be ordered for assignment with the 9th, numbered 176 to 179.
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Your are wrong here, 6th division is not created for 052C. 6th is the first destroyer division of ESF with 051. 052C replace the 051. They built new destroyer divisions at that time, but not for specific ship, it is just part of the naval expansion plan. They built the frame first, now just fill the destroyers to that frame. That is why they do not need to build new divisions now.Not sure if you got my point that the 6th (15X) and the 9th (17X) were created purposely for the 052C/D destroyers only.
6 destroyer divisions, from the very north to very south, 5 major bases, that is already a big frame, not need for more destroyer divisions.
That 055 looks like she's getting ready for trials. Modules perpendicular to that 055 has been deliberately blurred out. Hmm. Could be more destroyers?
You misunderstand me, but it is my mistake. I mean, 4 055s belong to 1st division, 4 belong to 9th division. This is already been comfired by chinese navy news. What I am not sure is, the numbers of these 8 ship, it can be 101-104 and 181-184, or 101-108.
Right now the 9th, which is in Hainan, has no 052DL coming for it. The future 052DL from Jiangnan are headed to the 2nd in Zhanjiang.
That does not seem right for me if a carrier is ported in Hainan, which is the only one of two naval bases in China that can hold a carrier. In fact, one of the Type 901 is already assigned to Hainan. Given that the South China Seas has been rowdy lately, the most modern ship there right now is the 161 Hohhot which is based on Zhanjiang with the 2nd.
For chinese navy, they do not think 052DL is higher 052D, actually, there is no one clasee of ship called 052DL. It only has minor improvement. As 9th has 4 052Ds, they give newer ship to 2nd and 10th to balance, not hard to understand.
This leaves us back to the 9th. So to upgrade the fleet in Hainan, you need to be producing more 055 and 052DL, past the number what we have already counted in the shipyards. You have two propositions here. All 8 055 stay in Qingdao and gets numbered 101 to 108, and another four 055 will be built for the South China Seas fleet. The second proposition is that some of the eight will go to SSF and assigned to the 9th and in which case, these ships are not going to be numbered 10X but maybe 17X or 18X. In addition to this, more 052DL or even "052E" will be ordered for assignment with the 9th, numbered 176 to 179.
9th is different, they use same base with carrier, that's why they got 055s, similar with 1st division.
I believe PLAN will build more 052-series destroyers, but not sure will they assign these ships to 1st and 9th divisions or not. I guess they won't give more 052-series destroyers to 1st and 9th divisions. If this happens, there will be no destroyer numbered 176-179.
Your are wrong here, 6th division is not created for 052C. 6th is the first destroyer division of ESF with 051. 052C replace the 051. They built new destroyer divisions at that time, but not for specific ship, it is just part of the naval expansion plan. They built the frame first, now just fill the destroyers to that frame. That is why they do not need to build new divisions now.
6 destroyer divisions, from the very north to very south, 5 major bases, that is already a big frame, not need for more destroyer divisions.
You misunderstand me, but it is my mistake. I mean, 4 055s belong to 1st division, 4 belong to 9th division. This is already been comfired by chinese navy news. What I am not sure is, the numbers of these 8 ship, it can be 101-104 and 181-184, or 101-108.
Just feels like it would be 101 to 104 for 1st Div and 176 to 179 or 180 to 183 or 181 to 184. I have doubts on the numbering of 105 to 108 unless all eight ships stay in Qingdao. The middle digit is the regional or divisional designator, and I doubt they will change this system just for these ships.
If each carrier is assigned four 055s, at least one or two can be deployed with the carrier at the minimum, assuming one might be maintenance and another in deployment somewhere or is in training. If both Liaoning and Shandong stays in Qingdao, then its possible, all eight will remain there.
Its possible then 003 will go to Hainan, with an all new batch of four 055 that might even be improved over the first eight.
Another possibility is that six will stay in Qingdao, two will move to the SSF as seed ships to train a new 055 based formation there, and new 055 will be built later to fill this formation.
For chinese navy, they do not think 052DL is higher 052D, actually, there is no one clasee of ship called 052DL. It only has minor improvement. As 9th has 4 052Ds, they give newer ship to 2nd and 10th to balance, not hard to understand.
In a way, but I suspect the second batch of 052D has improved the Type 346A radar, as the ships no longer have the calibration boom seen in earlier ships. Its possible there might be more upgrades to the radar than just the calibration method. Then in addition with the lengthened version, you have the new metric wave radar, which is now double sided and doubles the scan rate. The ESM also appears upgraded from the second batch, but this can be retrofitted on earlier ships like they did on 052C. Other than the extended helicopter deck, these changes can be retrofitted on earlier ships including Type 1130 CIWS and possibly a new version of HQ-10. So I guess it may not be a big deal.
9th is different, they use same base with carrier, that's why they got 055s, similar with 1st division.
I believe PLAN will build more 052-series destroyers, but not sure will they assign these ships to 1st and 9th divisions or not. I guess they won't give more 052-series destroyers to 1st and 9th divisions. If this happens, there will be no destroyer numbered 176-179.
Possible, if both divisions will get more 055s.
Liaoning is deployed in Qingdao, a city in Shandong province , and Shandong's homeport is Sanya, which is in Hainan province. Shandong is still staying in Dalian shipyard, but it came to be in service at Sanya base. President Xi went to that ceremony.If both Liaoning and Shandong stays in Qingdao, then its possible, all eight will remain there.