052C/052D Class Destroyers

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Can someone walk me through again the forum lore about the Type346 ESA radar on the 052C?

If I remember way back in the mid 2000s, the logical thinking was that the radar has to also perform the guidance role in absence of dedicated FCR radars. For that purpose, S-band would not be adequate. Knowing that the HT-233 for the land version of HQ-9 is C-band, and has a search functionality in addition to missile guidance, it was reasonable to assume the Type 346 would share many of its aspects.
The other thinking was that the radar is search and track only and the missiles themselves are ARH, based on the FT-2000.

It was only in 2016 when someone posted a novella on the wiki page for the Type 346 that the forum lore shifted to the idea of dual S-band/C-band.

Can we entirely dismiss the possibility that the 23rd institute (or whoever designed the C-band APAR) won afterall?

FT-2000 is a ARM SAM, it homes through passive means. FD-2000, the export version, appears to be ARH. The marketing posters for it, not just once, but over the years have been pretty consistent with this story.

k37ucy.jpg 0_1183c0_1aaaabba_XL.jpg kQeC-hphsupy1569934.jpg 0_QmKk1d27SCFfI93o.jpg


Another thing. The Type 052C/D has the Type 364 radar on top of a mast, and this is a C-band radar.

200452714545719.jpg

Why do you need two C-band radars on the same ship? Note, this radar also appears on the Type 054A frigate on the mast above the funnel. With the Type 382 providing S-band coverage, Type 364 provides the C-band coverage.

Why would a destroyer of this size and importance, lack the all important S-band search radar?

HT-233 might have search functions, but that is only a back up to the Type 120 (L-band) or Type 305 (S-band) search radars that are the primary search radars and part of any HQ-9 battery. iI SEAD were to knock out the Type 120 or 305 radars, the HT-233 could still operate by itself --- the built in search capability is just an insurance policy. Don't look too much into the HT-233 itself --- its only part of the HQ-9 battery, which also includes the Type 120 or 305 search radars. Furthermore, the Type 305A radar just happens to be an S-band AESA.

0_qKkdI4zvvoyI4I9r.jpeg

The point is, the S-band search radar is the PLA's AMEX for longer ranged SAMs --- they never leave home without it. Plus the way the Type 346 is placed in the ship, the 052C/D is meant to be a Burke analog, and the Type 346 the SPY-1 analog. The part where the 052C/D breaks away from the Burke analog, is the lack of any discernible missile target illumination mechanisms like the SPG-62.
 
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Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
Valid points about S-band.

Assuming the wiki article is correct and the Type 346 has 2x C-band arrays for missile homing per face. Can we quantify the performance degradation compared to HT-233 which has a larger total array surface. Also, what is the consequence of the smaller arrays not being dual axis symmetric like HT-233 and most other ESA radars?
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
Last time I played CMANO it was easier to sink a 052D then a Sovremmeny using Harpoons. This was due to a combination of poor horizon search and HHQ-9s being innefective against sea-skimmers. A lot of people complained about the latter.

We should write a petition to PLAN to come out with specs already. They pretty much ruined my CMANO experience ;)
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
Regarding Type 346, all the published sources I could find indicate that it's a G band (C band) air search/fire control radar. Ultimately, that's what CMANO sources.

The dual-band radar reads as interesting, but I don't find it credible. Just look at how small those alleged FCR strips are:
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Tam makes a good remark abound S-band. And that would hold, if the HHQ-9s are ARH. I am curious to know why Friedman thought it unlikely that they've managed to manufacture S-band T/R modules of sufficient power in the early to mid 2000s.
346_2a.gif
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Last time I played CMANO it was easier to sink a 052D then a Sovremmeny using Harpoons. This was due to a combination of poor horizon search and HHQ-9s being innefective against sea-skimmers. A lot of people complained about the latter.

We should write a petition to PLAN to come out with specs already. They pretty much ruined my CMANO experience ;)

That does sound very off.

Tried some CMANO but never picked up the learning curve.

The way a 052 is set up basically makes it invulnerable to Harpoons unless every AAM has been expended.

On more public systems with similar capabilities, you could try modding it in based on the Sea Viper system which has similar radar config and uses Aster 30, which is comparable to FD-2000 (FD-2000 scored a close win against Aster 30 & others in Turkey’s AAM competition)
 

Mirabo

Junior Member
Registered Member
It should be quite clear by now, why PLA-watching is oftentimes more accurate than mainstream sources.

Chinese military fans can be absolute nutters. You have people who are related with military projects leaking rumors and information. You have people sneaking into restricted areas to snap pictures of these projects under development, just to share with the fanbase. Indeed, some of them do get caught and arrested. It's not a hobby without risk.

What makes these forums different from mainstream sources is that we have people who read and speak Chinese, who are familiar with the Chinese-speaking PLA-watching environment, and who regularly translate primary sources into English. From my experience, rumors and pictures on Chinese boards typically don't last more than a day before someone from SDF come across them and reposts them here.

On the other hand, mainstream sources typically take their information from Western intelligence reports that are heavily scrutinized before being made publicly available, from "experts" who treat these reports as gospel, and from public databases that pull fantasy numbers from their asses, with little to no credible evidence to back up their claims.

It should be a no-brainer, figuring which source of information is the more reliable one, and has been proven to be the more reliable one.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Valid points about S-band.

Assuming the wiki article is correct and the Type 346 has 2x C-band arrays for missile homing per face. Can we quantify the performance degradation compared to HT-233 which has a larger total array surface. Also, what is the consequence of the smaller arrays not being dual axis symmetric like HT-233 and most other ESA radars?

Before we go on further, there needs to be some explanation with regards to FCR functions and some differences in the philosophies of SAM systems. The differences of SAM systems makes comparisons between SAM systems moot because you cannot expect to apply the working principle of one SAM system to another when they have different working principles.

in an FCR, it still needs to continuously track and range the target, while the CW beams will light up the target. The search radar searches, acquires, designates the target and then hands over the target to the FCR. The FCR does the rest, which includes continuing to track the target, while the SR continues to search for more targets. Due to the higher frequency and PRF used by the FCR, the tracking resolution is much greater and tighter compared to the SR, whose tracks would be looser.

Now note: for target illumination, the beam must be Continuous Wave Illumination, and cannot be Pulse, while the tracking and ranging has to be pulse or PRF. The circuits are different between the two. You would have to assign some parts of the array as PRF, and some parts to be CWI. With a PESA unit, you would have to literally divide the array between a main section that is PRF, and smaller section that is CWI. In the case of these two radars below, the main radar is PRF, but these small arrays to the side and below are CWI. (MPQ-53 to the left, HT-233 to the right). The PRF ability also gives these radars a search function either to serve as an autonomous unit (MPQ-53) or as a back up if the primary search radar is taken out (HT-233). The main array tracks the target in high PRF, and cues the illuminating arrays to the target.

img4232.jpg HT-233.jpg

But in this next case of the Flaplid, there are no separation.

flaplid.jpg

That is because this array also works on FMCW or Frequency Modulated Continuous Wave. Because CW is continuous and has no stops, you cannot get range information. You need stops. What FMCW does is that using frequency modulation, it introduces "chirps" into the CW, and the radar uses the timing of the echoes of these chirps to obtain the range. The FMCW beams is capable of tracking and ranging the target with the same beam that is used to illuminate the target for the missiles.

Flaplid relies on the Big Bird for search information. Flaplid works on X-band only, which is inefficient for search, while Big Beard is S-band. Note that Flaplid is a spaced phase array with the feed on the rear, while Big Bird is a reflective spaced phase array with the feeds on the front.

NIIIP-64N6E2-PESA-SA-20B-WP-2S.jpg

According to CMANO, Type 346 relies on ICWI, or Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination. ICWI is a subset or kind of FMCW, where you introduce pauses or stops in the CW, which is used for range information. That spins a different explanation of how the Type 346 could illuminate targets using the main array itself, and would not rely on small dedicated CW arrays described on Wiki. To be honest, both systems would work. But if the Chinese were already developing ICWI techniques, they would be nearly doing so at the same time while Thales was working on APAR, which is the first system in the West to use this technique. The other problem of this is that the HQ-9 would have to be modified to accept ICWI instead of just CWI, though this can be done, just as Standards and ESSMs were updated to handle the ICWI of the Thales APAR.

Even if this system works, the whole ship still needs some S-band to serve as the main search radar. The SR and FCR duality remains strong in the PLA.

SPY-1D works a bit differently. SPY-1D is a search radar but also has an engagement mode with higher PRF and frequency modes for tighter tracking. It would have to use the longer spectrum of the S-band for search, and the shorter spectrum for fire control. As the radar steps down from search to engagement, from numerous loosy tracking to designated threat, tighter more accurate tracking, it would turn the SPG-62 illuminators which are entirely dumb, towards the target. Unlike true FCRs, SPG-62 only lights the target, and does not receive echoes and back and processes the information. This is why AEGIS and SPY-1 works differently from other SAM systems, where the FCR is still receiving and processing reflected signals.

In the Wiki explanation of Type 346, the Type 346 would work this way. 346 would step down from search to an engagement mode, go from looser tracking of targets to tighter tracking, and simply directs the dumb CW arrays to the target. For me, that sounds a lot simpler and would not require any modification on the HQ-9 seekers to work with ICWI.

With regards to the shape, the Type 346 is taller than it is wider. Assuming the main array itself is equal length both width and height, that would leave space above and below the main array for small CW arrays. This being a C-band array, each element would be much smaller, and they can operate on peak power right off.

On the Type 346A, the main panel is now perfectly square. This should mean that the main array inside the panel would be equal length in both width and height, but its dimensions expanded to fill the square panel, leaving little room but the corners. At this point, the HQ-9 may have shifted to ARH seekers, about the time the 052D is introduced. The newer HQ-9 with ARH could also work on the Type 052C, though the C-band arrays would no longer function.

The fact both Type 346 and 346A are used in the Chinese carriers as the main search radars, means they should be S-band for that purpose. Being C-band would be detrimental due to the reduced range of this waveband. The C-band on the Liaoning's Type 346 would have to be eliminated, as there is no point in having it, and the radar could have added more S-band elements to improve the search performance.

If you were to use all C-band on the array, that would more than double the number of elements in the array, greatly increase the power used, and with the added complexity of adding an ICWI circuit, also greatly increasing the cost per face, while not increasing the range and may still require a separate search radar altogether. That does not sound logical in the face of a still developing nation and navy budget at that time.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Last time I played CMANO it was easier to sink a 052D then a Sovremmeny using Harpoons. This was due to a combination of poor horizon search and HHQ-9s being innefective against sea-skimmers. A lot of people complained about the latter.

We should write a petition to PLAN to come out with specs already. They pretty much ruined my CMANO experience ;)


They likely thought horizon search is not very good due to the height of the arrays from the sea level. SPY-1D should have a similar problem. However, this is mitigated by having secondary search radars on the mast. In this case, the Type 364 radar on top of the mast in white round radome.

200452714545719.jpg

type-052d-luyang-iii-ddg-172-kunming.jpg

The USN solution is this:
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Interstellar

Junior Member
Registered Member
Before we go on further, there needs to be some explanation with regards to FCR functions and some differences in the philosophies of SAM systems. The differences of SAM systems makes comparisons between SAM systems moot because you cannot expect to apply the working principle of one SAM system to another when they have different working principles.

in an FCR, it still needs to continuously track and range the target, while the CW beams will light up the target. The search radar searches, acquires, designates the target and then hands over the target to the FCR. The FCR does the rest, which includes continuing to track the target, while the SR continues to search for more targets. Due to the higher frequency and PRF used by the FCR, the tracking resolution is much greater and tighter compared to the SR, whose tracks would be looser.

Now note: for target illumination, the beam must be Continuous Wave Illumination, and cannot be Pulse, while the tracking and ranging has to be pulse or PRF. The circuits are different between the two. You would have to assign some parts of the array as PRF, and some parts to be CWI. With a PESA unit, you would have to literally divide the array between a main section that is PRF, and smaller section that is CWI. In the case of these two radars below, the main radar is PRF, but these small arrays to the side and below are CWI. (MPQ-53 to the left, HT-233 to the right). The PRF ability also gives these radars a search function either to serve as an autonomous unit (MPQ-53) or as a back up if the primary search radar is taken out (HT-233). The main array tracks the target in high PRF, and cues the illuminating arrays to the target.

View attachment 51278 View attachment 51277

But in this next case of the Flaplid, there are no separation.

View attachment 51279

That is because this array also works on FMCW or Frequency Modulated Continuous Wave. Because CW is continuous and has no stops, you cannot get range information. You need stops. What FMCW does is that using frequency modulation, it introduces "chirps" into the CW, and the radar uses the timing of the echoes of these chirps to obtain the range. The FMCW beams is capable of tracking and ranging the target with the same beam that is used to illuminate the target for the missiles.

Flaplid relies on the Big Bird for search information. Flaplid works on X-band only, which is inefficient for search, while Big Beard is S-band. Note that Flaplid is a spaced phase array with the feed on the rear, while Big Bird is a reflective spaced phase array with the feeds on the front.

View attachment 51280

According to CMANO, Type 346 relies on ICWI, or Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination. ICWI is a subset or kind of FMCW, where you introduce pauses or stops in the CW, which is used for range information. That spins a different explanation of how the Type 346 could illuminate targets using the main array itself, and would not rely on small dedicated CW arrays described on Wiki. To be honest, both systems would work. But if the Chinese were already developing ICWI techniques, they would be nearly doing so at the same time while Thales was working on APAR, which is the first system in the West to use this technique. The other problem of this is that the HQ-9 would have to be modified to accept ICWI instead of just CWI, though this can be done, just as Standards and ESSMs were updated to handle the ICWI of the Thales APAR.

Even if this system works, the whole ship still needs some S-band to serve as the main search radar. The SR and FCR duality remains strong in the PLA.

SPY-1D works a bit differently. SPY-1D is a search radar but also has an engagement mode with higher PRF and frequency modes for tighter tracking. It would have to use the longer spectrum of the S-band for search, and the shorter spectrum for fire control. As the radar steps down from search to engagement, from numerous loosy tracking to designated threat, tighter more accurate tracking, it would turn the SPG-62 illuminators which are entirely dumb, towards the target. Unlike true FCRs, SPG-62 only lights the target, and does not receive echoes and back and processes the information. This is why AEGIS and SPY-1 works differently from other SAM systems, where the FCR is still receiving and processing reflected signals.

In the Wiki explanation of Type 346, the Type 346 would work this way. 346 would step down from search to an engagement mode, go from looser tracking of targets to tighter tracking, and simply directs the dumb CW arrays to the target. For me, that sounds a lot simpler and would not require any modification on the HQ-9 seekers to work with ICWI.

With regards to the shape, the Type 346 is taller than it is wider. Assuming the main array itself is equal length both width and height, that would leave space above and below the main array for small CW arrays. This being a C-band array, each element would be much smaller, and they can operate on peak power right off.

On the Type 346A, the main panel is now perfectly square. This should mean that the main array inside the panel would be equal length in both width and height, but its dimensions expanded to fill the square panel, leaving little room but the corners. At this point, the HQ-9 may have shifted to ARH seekers, about the time the 052D is introduced. The newer HQ-9 with ARH could also work on the Type 052C, though the C-band arrays would no longer function.

The fact both Type 346 and 346A are used in the Chinese carriers as the main search radars, means they should be S-band for that purpose. Being C-band would be detrimental due to the reduced range of this waveband. The C-band on the Liaoning's Type 346 would have to be eliminated, as there is no point in having it, and the radar could have added more S-band elements to improve the search performance.

If you were to use all C-band on the array, that would more than double the number of elements in the array, greatly increase the power used, and with the added complexity of adding an ICWI circuit, also greatly increasing the cost per face, while not increasing the range and may still require a separate search radar altogether. That does not sound logical in the face of a still developing nation and navy budget at that time.
I suppose HQ-9 is an ARH missile from the beginning.
 
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