052/052B Class Destroyers

Re: DDG 052C Thread

kroko said:

How old is that first image that we saw? Only then we will know.

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I believe the following photo, from up thread and which prompted the discussion, was taken in late May of early June of this year:



When you look at the larger image, IMHO, the PAR is clearly flat and larger than the exisiting Type 052C or Carrier PARs. It would be nice to have more photos of this at various angles.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

Or is it simply that 052C is chinese and type 45 is british/european?

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Mostly this. Just because both ships have AESA and similarly ranged SAM's doesn't mean the quality of those systems are the same. In fact it's easier for me to assume that they are not than for you to assume that they are. No doubt China has come a long way with naval warfare systems but just by what I know of the PLAN I would say they are not up to state of the art in naval technology. The UK is. Problem?

Bltizo said:

But they are still perfectly relevant when comparing one class of ship with another. And PLAN won't always be fighting the USN -- most of the time they won't be. By that logic they might as well remove the main gun and RHIBs and just stick in as many VLS cells as possible.

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Not really. It's perfectly fine to have antiship missiles and main guns on ships, but comparing these barely important systems to each other and stating one ship is better than another on these bases is skewing the truly important aspects of capital ships these days, which is air defense, and to a lesser extent ASW and strike. In that regard, the missile system, radar system, and combat management system of a given ship is the true basis of comparison between different ships. Even if the 052C had better antiship missiles and main guns than the Type 45, I would still give the edge to the Type 45 based on its anti-air systems which I guess to be better than the Type 052C, and like I said, my bet on this is more likely than yours, and you know it.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:

Mostly this. Just because both ships have AESA and similarly ranged SAM's doesn't mean the quality of those systems are the same. In fact it's easier for me to assume that they are not than for you to assume that they are. No doubt China has come a long way with naval warfare systems but just by what I know of the PLAN I would say they are not up to state of the art in naval technology. The UK is. Problem?

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Indeed that's a problem. In forum, personal assumption and perception are not accepted to comfirm an system... everything must backed by facts. You must be new here?

So now China is able to send man to space, shoot down satelite and even conduct an ABM mid- course interception outside atmostphere. So that mean UK who's not able to do so are crap in my perception, is it?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Lion said:

Indeed that's a problem. In forum, personal assumption and perception are not accepted to comfirm an system... everything must backed by facts. You must be new here?

So now China is able to send man to space, shoot down satelite and even conduct an ABM mid- course interception outside atmostphere. So that mean UK who's not able to do so are crap in my perception, is it?

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Actually, based on your posts here, I feel I am far more cognizant of my own biases than you are of yours. But that is another matter.

While China's space program has made some great achievements and is definitely something for us to be proud of, people need to stop deluding themselves by confusing lack of political will with lack of inherent technological capability. Space programs, especially manned programs, are expensive both politically and economically. But IMO if ESA and even JAXA had the will to institute such programs back in the day, they would be far ahead of where China is now. This scenario would have been much more likely if there were not a Cold War or if the geopolitical interests of Europe and Japan were (and are) otherwise not so closely aligned with that of the US.

Getting back to the 052C, it is difficult for me to imagine how you do NOT feel that the state of the art in UK naval technology is higher than that of China, but that is just where personal biases come through, and outside of concrete information which we in fact do not have, all we have left is "personal assumption and perception". Problem?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:

Actually, based on your posts here, I feel I am far more cognizant of my own biases than you are of yours. But that is another matter.

While China's space program has made some great achievements and is definitely something for us to be proud of, people need to stop deluding themselves by confusing lack of political will with lack of inherent technological capability. Space programs, especially manned programs, are expensive both politically and economically. But IMO if ESA and even JAXA had the will to institute such programs back in the day, they would be far ahead of where China is now. This scenario would have been much more likely if there were not a Cold War or if the geopolitical interests of Europe and Japan were (and are) otherwise not so closely aligned with that of the US.

Getting back to the 052C, it is difficult for me to imagine how you do NOT feel that the state of the art in UK naval technology is higher than that of China, but that is just where personal biases come through, and outside of concrete information which we in fact do not have, all we have left is "personal assumption and perception". Problem?

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It still a problem. I still feel UK naval technology is inferior. Problem?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Lion said:

It still a problem. I still feel UK naval technology is inferior. Problem?

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You can "feel" whatever the hell you want.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

So let's say a 052C meets a Type 45 on the open seas, no other support, the 052C can shoot the Type 45 all it wants, the Type 45 can do what? Swear loudly?

I don't think anyone is saying Chinese naval technology is on par with British, but on a ship to ship basis the 052C is a more balanced ship, while the Type 45 is a product of compromises (technological, political, economical). The Type 45 is indeed a cutting edge dedicated air defense ship, the Sampson is something even the USN envy, however for a 8000+ ton ship to carry only 48 SAMs is rather embarrassing when compared with a Burke.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

hmmwv said:

So let's say a 052C meets a Type 45 on the open seas, no other support, the 052C can shoot the Type 45 all it wants, the Type 45 can do what? Swear loudly?

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I fail to discern what you mean by this. And what do you mean by "shoot"? A YJ-62? A 100mm round? What? Why would a Type 45 only swear loudly at a Type 052C "shooting" at it?

hmmwv said:

I don't think anyone is saying Chinese naval technology is on par with British

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But actually, that is EXACTLY what Blitzo is saying. And Lion is saying that Chinese naval technology actually EXCEEDS the British! Now I'm no Westerncentric tech snob, but what's common sense should be common, and outside of firm confirmation otherwise from PLAN sources, Western naval technological superiority still holds. We will see a blurring of this technological distinction soon enough, but today is not that day. I will wait to see the outcome of the 052D program (if it actually exists) before I could grow any more confident that a tech parity with the West has been reached, or is even close.

hmmwv said:

but on a ship to ship basis the 052C is a more balanced ship, while the Type 45 is a product of compromises (technological, political, economical). The Type 45 is indeed a cutting edge dedicated air defense ship, the Sampson is something even the USN envy, however for a 8000+ ton ship to carry only 48 SAMs is rather embarrassing when compared with a Burke.

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Well if you look at an overhead of the Type 45 it is clear that a middle row of 3 VLS modules could fit in there for a total of 9 modules = 72 missiles. It is not clear to me why they did not add more missiles given the presence of room, possibly financial, possibly other. But the latent capability is certainly there. A similar example is found in the Zeven Provincien class "frigates" of the Dutch navy. A 2x3 grid of VLS modules with only 5 actual modules in there. The only thing the Type 052C has that the Type 45 does not is the 8 YJ-62's. That's it AFAIK. If you want to call that greater "balance", that's fine, but the presence of antiship missiles on a warship to me is meh these days unless you're expecting to fight weak opponents without good air cover and/or good air defense. Flight IIA Burkes did away with them altogether to devote more room to hangar space (I think), though looking at pictures of Flight IIA's over the years I've always thought they still had enough deck space to keep those 8 Harpoons.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:

I fail to discern what you mean by this. And what do you mean by "shoot"? A YJ-62? A 100mm round? What? Why would a Type 45 only swear loudly at a Type 052C "shooting" at it?

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One would think it's obvious that he means the 052C can shoot ant-ship missiles at the Type 45 and not expect any sort of retaliation from it in return. Your antagonistic attitude isn't helping I'm afraid, hmmvv didn't use any provocative language that warrants the use of such a mocking tone from multiple sarcastic questions.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

jobjed said:

One would think it's obvious that he means the 052C can shoot ant-ship missiles at the Type 45 and not expect any sort of retaliation from it in return. Your antagonistic attitude isn't helping I'm afraid, hmmvv didn't use any provocative language that warrants the use of such a mocking tone from multiple sarcastic questions.

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If I had intended to be provocative it would take little for me to make it quite obvious. You need to grow a thick skin or else probably you should consider not posting on internet forums. I mean it.

Let's take this to its logical conclusion. The Type 052C fires 4 YJ-62's, hardly consistuting a saturation attack. The Type 45 shoots them down with ease. The Type 052C then makes a 180 degree turn and fires its remaining 4 YJ-62's, hardly constituting a saturation attack. The Type 45 shoots them down with ease. Now what is the Type 052C going to do? Swear loudly?