J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Gloire_bb]

but I think the benefits are minimal for a BVR fighter aircraft, of course there are times when in spite of your best efforts, you may end up drawn into a "furball"

It is almost assured in a high end conflict.
Too many bogeys(both true and false), too much ew, too many troubles with IFF transponders. It's outright naive to always expect what enemy will let you fight your way.
Furthermore, there are lots of ways to force WVR combat onto enemy. The more you avoid it, the more enemy will be willing to try.

So, for now, a proper fighter is fully WVR-capable fighter.
Which J-20 clearly is.

 

[Air Force Brat]

It is almost assured in a high end conflict.
Too many bogeys(both true and false), too much ew, too many troubles with IFF transponders. It's outright naive to always expect what enemy will let you fight your way.
Furthermore, there are lots of ways to force WVR combat onto enemy. The more you avoid it, the more enemy will be willing to try.

So, for now, a proper fighter is fully WVR-capable fighter.
Which J-20 clearly is.

If you read my post I'm simply stating that China may or may Not elect to equip the J-20 with an internal gun and/or OVT on the WS-15, that not including those two items is NOT a design flaw.....

I also pointed out the the J-20 is very agile as a result of Dr. Songs "distant coupled canard" set-up,,, so for clarity, the J-20 is a very fine fighter both BVR/WVR, I do think OVT offers a higher ITR, and the internal gun is nice, but not absolutely necessary....

and I agree with you, the harder you try to avoid WVR, the more likely you will be to drawn into it, if the bad guy can find you and close?? if you are extremely L/O, you can sneak around and engage as you desire, disengage as you wish, if he can't find you and close with you, its your ballgame!

 

[Air Force Brat]

Well you threw me off when you used the word "has", "has" is in the present tense, possessive, of course the J-20 is currently flying with the Russian AL-31FN or the Chinese WS-10, Yang Wei did suggest that there is possibly a J-20 flying or going to Fly with the WS-10 with OVT??

When the WS-15 does come along? it may or may not have OVT, I personally like OVT, but I think the benefits are minimal for a BVR fighter aircraft, of course there are times when in spite of your best efforts, you may end up drawn into a "furball", then you would likely wish for an internal gun and OVT??

so it really boils down to what the customer needs/wants, Chengdu will build the J-20 that the Chinese military "spec out", real simple. If the Chinese Military wants an internal gun and OVT, Chengdu will build it, if they elect to leave those two items off, Chengdu will build that, so its really a question of what the Chinese Military deems advantageous for this beautiful airplane. If you watch the flight demo, the J-20 pulls through the vertical and back to airshow center very rapidly aerodynamically, so this airplane has a very rapid pitch transition due to its "distant coupled canards", no design flaws here, NONE!

thank you for your post clarifying your meaning/concerns, I hope this helps you understand that Chengdu is capable of giving the Chinese Military the airplane configuration that they, and they alone deem advantageous, just like LockMart has built the USAF, USN, and Marines the airplane they each want....

Check out Mr. Siege's video post immediately above, you will see the J-20 pull down very hard off the vertical line back to airshow center, in fact he back's off that very quickly, so I'm guessing he was in "sleepy time" high G territory, if you watch the whole video very carefully, you will see him rapidly transition from a very high G hard right, to a very high G hard left, now that will make your eyeballs rattle around in your head, and your inner ear do flip-flops, ask me how I know??

So the J-20 with present engines is a very high performance airplane capable of very rapid pitch, roll, and yaw transitions, see for yourself, and I do hope this helps, there are always nameless naysayers critiquing your work.... always.

and actually the video was post by illchairman, an awesome video, and maybe a much tighter performance, very krisp!

 

[by78]

Low-flying formation of J-20s... All images are high-resolution.

 

[by78]

 

[ougoah]

It is almost assured in a high end conflict.
Too many bogeys(both true and false), too much ew, too many troubles with IFF transponders. It's outright naive to always expect what enemy will let you fight your way.
Furthermore, there are lots of ways to force WVR combat onto enemy. The more you avoid it, the more enemy will be willing to try.

So, for now, a proper fighter is fully WVR-capable fighter.
Which J-20 clearly is.

The more the enemy will be willing to TRY for WVR engagements. Good luck to them. PLAAF beats out every airforce except for USAF in terms of BOTH numbers and equipment technology. No one is stupid enough to beg for WVR with PLAAF because there are hundreds of non-expensive 4th gens more than happy to handle those engagements. The point of all this is that installing an internal gun on J-20 from the start of the program would have been one of the easiest tasks for CAC. If they did not put one in, it is because PLAAF did not want one and wanted that space and weight freed up for other things. Their assessment of how to conduct air superiority with what they have, FAR exceeds anyone else's understanding. Therefore if it is indeed true there is no gun on J-20, we can be sure there will be close to zero need for one given how conservative China's armed forces have been in the past with regards to procurement and decision making.

So it's reasonable for us to think that it is indeed a total waste of space, weight, and costs for a 5th gen to be carrying a gun for the purposes of future air combat. PLAAF seems to be sure that they will NOT be using 5th gens in WVR ever. The two SRAAMs on the side bays have much longer ranges than guns and they are there not only because it may be used WVR but future MRAAMs may be made to fit into those bays. Who knows. These frames have at least 30 years or so of service. I think it's a horrible waste of a 5th gen's inherent capabilities (and astronomical costs) to use them in such a way that allows the margin for any kind of WVR fight with much cheaper and equally effective dogfighters in 4th gens, so choosing to fly J-20s into dogfights is throwing away all its special capabilities and allowing the enemy to fight on an even playing field. If you think those dogfights will be somehow forced onto J-20s, I must ask REALLY?! when J-20 will be able to see those fighters ages before they do and decide on engagement (not to mention that J-20 will have MANY other fighters and supports around them)?

If you're talking about USAF, yes all bets are off and PLAAF doesn't stand much chance against it conventionally although I doubt USAF wants to risk engaging these days. To fight USAF, China needs a totally novel approach to resolving proliferation of USAF 5th gens, rather than applying a counter force of equal numbers of 5th gens. That's not going to be quite an effective use of resources because it guarantees PLAAF will remain one step behind. Japan is a small force and any potential fight will mostly be started with China throwing thousands of missiles at those F-35 airfields first... nothing to lose since it'll be war anyway in that case. When Russia introduces Su-57, rest will have 6th gens being tested at this rate.... that's IF they ever decide to finish off that product.

J-10s and J-11s are still being made and upgraded. UAVs will become the numbers backbone for air superiority and it will become attrition and a function of geography. Air combat is no longer as simple as those theories which suggest they ALL degrade into a dogfight. Now there is supercruise and a MUCH better understanding of the battlefield. Strategy has completely shifted now that technology has improved. If medium range engagements fail to be effective, J-20s will just fall back a bit or completely back off. All these assets work in cooperation and if any dogfights are "forced" onto PLAAF, surrounding J-11s and J-10s will rush in and good luck to any airforce that isn't USAF dealing with modern J-10s and J-11s which will outnumber them at least 5 to 1 if fighting in or around China. Again let's not forget the thousands of older fighters and UAVs which will all be something that needs shooting down. There are few airforces in the world that have as many A2A missiles as PLAAF has planes + UAVs. Zero purpose for a gun. Better use for the space would be avionics and sensors or leaving it free for future mods.

 

[Gloire_bb]

PLAAF beats out every airforce except for USAF in terms of BOTH numbers and equipment technology.

There are helluva air forces with higher and much higher average technological level, even if you are going to compare exclusively by fighter force itself(what you do, because otherwise you wouldn't write this). There are airforces, capable of having comparable or superior order of battle for reasonable time in every direction from China. US eveggn have 3 of them right now at the same time(those pesky bugs from carriers, and marine lightnings from every piece of land they can find). Certainly so, if China is forced to fight more than one a time.

Furthermore, it won't change in the near future. PLAAF is just too large and too restricted in its options with adequate support platforms to suddenly improve.

P.s.i can't agree with you on avoiding wvr: fighter is meant to shoot down bogeys. Just endanger something more valuable than it, and your force with fight with teeth and nails.
On the other hand, i agree what j-20 having or not internal gun doesn't mean as much in pure air combat.
In part, since chinese fighters(and threir guns) have "eastern" lineage, so more likely than not there is barely enough ammo for 3-4 short bursts: gun just doesn't add as much air to air.
But commitement to bwr is shown by fast bays.

If you don't mind, we can continue other parts of your post in other topics dedicated to air warfare.

 

[ougoah]

There are helluva air forces with higher and much higher average technological level, even if you are going to compare exclusively by fighter force itself(what you do, because otherwise you wouldn't write this). There are airforces, capable of having comparable or superior order of battle for reasonable time in every direction from China. US eveggn have 3 of them right now at the same time(those pesky bugs from carriers, and marine lightnings from every piece of land they can find). Certainly so, if China is forced to fight more than one a time.

Furthermore, it won't change in the near future. PLAAF is just too large and too restricted in its options with adequate support platforms to suddenly improve.

P.s.i can't agree with you on avoiding wvr: fighter is meant to shoot down bogeys. Just endanger something more valuable than it, and your force with fight with teeth and nails.
On the other hand, i agree what j-20 having or not internal gun doesn't mean as much in pure air combat.
In part, since chinese fighters(and threir guns) have "eastern" lineage, so more likely than not there is barely enough ammo for 3-4 short bursts: gun just doesn't add as much air to air.
But commitement to bwr is shown by fast bays.

If you don't mind, we can continue other parts of your post in other topics dedicated to air warfare.

Which airforces have much higher average technology? Any specific examples can you show and prove? Yes referring to fighter force. Because as far as we're aware, only the US and China have fielded 5th gens and have very comprehensive UAV programs. Along with associated fighter technologies. Europe has not produced an engine with thrust output that matches even WS-10. Not counting Russia as Europe here. Few have AESA radars and even fewer have fielded versions. Fielded generally indicates some maturity with the technology and many years of successful testing and use at the least. Which ones have communication technologies better than China? Quantum communication? China's also as good at if not far ahead there. Computing? Not sure but would definitely not say any other airforce have these key components that ALL beat China hands down. Of course none of this is provable but the reverse is also true.

China won't fight more than one of these pack of cowards at a time. Any nation that wishes to fight with China will certainly have their entire population degraded to ash before a J-20 is used so your hypothetical is totally 100% off. Why would China take on another allegiance of savages this century? Get rid of them quickly and if they threaten the same, well we can all go to hell together so no one dares to threaten China much less actually fight. All too cowardly and they only bully the weak and defenseless as PROVEN time and time and time and time and time again. Any real fighting that will ever occur, will not even require J-20 which would be overkill and definitely not require a gun. We can rest easy. PLAAF will do just fine with the thousands of J-7s and J-8s because few airforces even have enough missiles to take all those down let alone fight all of PLAAF. And if you need your buddies to have your back, well we laugh at you and your supposed superior airforce.

There are airforces, capable of having comparable or superior order of battle for reasonable time in every direction from China.

HAHAHAHAHA okay. PLAAF must be trembling at the sight of these mighty mighty forces. Except no, not really.

Furthermore, it won't change in the near future. PLAAF is just too large and too restricted in its options with adequate support platforms to suddenly improve.

This is has been a good laugh

I guess PLAAF should just give up. It's too large and restricted and hasn't really improved much at all in the last 20 years unlike all those mighty airforces. With the likes of Typhoon and Rafale how did they build so many of those marvels in the last 20 years and only just put ESAs on them and have ESAs ready for installation when needed. Japan with their amazing F-15J and Russia with their work of perfection that is Su-35, so good they won't even need to build any Su-57s. And the rest of the world... even better than that

Basically they do not really have better stuff or industries and technologies anymore today, at least certainly not on a comprehensive level maybe only in certain niches which is true like transport, certain avionics MAYBE. Right now, only the USAF is better both numerically and technologically.

P.s.i can't agree with you on avoiding wvr: fighter is meant to shoot down bogeys. Just endanger something more valuable than it, and your force with fight with teeth and nails.
On the other hand, i agree what j-20 having or not internal gun doesn't mean as much in pure air combat.
In part, since chinese fighters(and threir guns) have "eastern" lineage, so more likely than not there is barely enough ammo for 3-4 short bursts: gun just doesn't add as much air to air.
But commitement to bwr is shown by fast bays.

Not PLAAF avoiding WVR, just J-20. Simply because 5th gens are just not designed for WVR. That is the simplest thing in the world. They throw away all their advantage of stealth which came with such costs, just to allow other fighters to visually find it? Would be better to not bother and spend those costs elsewhere. 5th gens are not for WVR therefore no real need for a gun.

 

[ougoah]

Why would a 5th gen throw away their one and only advantage (which come at varied and great costs) just to get into "fair" fights with cheaper and more plentiful fighters?! 5th gens are better used in many other ways. If it ever came to it running out of missiles with 4th gens closing in, it would be better to fly home and reload than to engage in a gunfight since the probability of win is 50% but the loss is greater in value than a win therefore it is a foolish thing to do.

Since ALL of these engagements will be ending with the 5th gen escaping to a mission more suited for its role, then why on earth would a sane person put a gun on it. So now it becomes the old school stubborn guys who keep insisting that all fights will turn into dogfights, well these people are clearly more motivated by sentiments and emotions than actual thinking. Because 5th gens have equal if not better situational awareness and can decide when to disengage if they are out of visual range. So since a gun isn't ever used even when the opportunity is offered, there is literally no reason for a 5th gen to keep a gun unless its mission involves strafing at targets with a gun and that's certainly not J-20's. The Americans insisted on one for the F-22 because it was designed back in the 90s with different expectations and detection/communication of targets and battlefield awareness. Some F-35 variants do carry a gun because it mostly does strike missions unlike J-20's longer range air superiority missions. The fact that some F-35 variants don't carry one is evidence enough that even a multirole strike fighter with strong and often focused air superiority capabilities, do not need one even when their weapons bay is more limited than J-20s for A2A.

J-20 being a more pure air superiority than F-35, has even less reason to carry a gun than the already gunless F-35. Using the F-22 and Su-57 as examples is really off because F-22 was designed in another era, its production ended before J-20s and su-57's even started. Su-57 is likely not VLO and its designers does seem to emphasize performance and dogfighting ability like most RuAF requirements. We'll see how it works out but for now, it isn't even fielded so no point using that as an example.

 

[AssassinsMace]

About the cannon debate... Since the gun on Chinese made fighters are "outside", for a stealth fighter that would be a new mechanical design having to be internal if there is one. So who knows how it would turn out. I remember reading people pointing out how practical the J-20's side weapons bay works during combat. How about an optional gun pod instead of a PL-10? The gun is safely hidden and when needed it pops out with the same practicality.