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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
You sound like trying to make USA 2.0 out of China by 1 treating allies as vassal state and 2 exporting ideology. Seems that you don't love China to be China but another USA instead.
He's looking at the situation without the rose colored glasses and purely fro a "REALIST IR PERSPECTIVE" and that's ought to be allowed for anyone here to hold, have, and think of this excellent partnership between China and Russia.

I also don't want China to become US 2.0 which essentially "out with the old bastard only to be replaced with another bastard even worst than the last one" situation. But let's not be too naive and so certain that future leaders in China will not succumb or tempted in copying some aspects of American foreign policy when China becomes unquestionably more powerful in all aspects in say 50 years. For now, China and GenSec Xi will not act like a bully or will even attempt to lord over Russia because that simply would not work and is counterproductive to China's vision for a more equitable multipolar world.
 

xypher

Senior Member
Registered Member
There're three key points to the China-Russia relations right now:
1) they have a common goal of ending the US-led global order and transform it into multipolar system;
2) they have complementary economic structures - Russia is a large exporter of natural resources and energy but has limited manufacturing in many sectors, while China wants resources and is a large exporter of both finished products & tools;
3) China has more leverage in negotiations because Russia has a limited choice and they are all 'worse' than China but that doesn't make Russia a vassal.

The rest is mostly speculation and semantics. Yes, this started as a marriage of convenience but we will see how it will evolve down the line. Even if it stays at that level, I'm sure that's acceptable for both Russia and China as long as they reach their goal of dismantling the Western-centric world order.

Comparing Canada to Russia is also quite stupid - economically they may be similar but the former basically has no military compared to the US while Russia is still 3rd/4th military in the world and has the largest nuclear stockpile, which makes it far more valuable as a partner.
 
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Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
I reply to the post when I read it up to that point. If you did not make your self clear up to that point, I suggest you make a better effort next time.
This makes sense, I accept this argument. So lets go and see where in my post I said

You sound like trying to make USA 2.0 out of China by 1 treating allies as vessel state and 2 exporting ideology. Seems that you don't love China to be China but another USA instead.

My post:
This Xi-Putin meeting and it's results pretty much signals that Russia is to become a junior partner of China, China's Canada, and basically becoming (non-PR version) an economic colony.
Given others reaction I suppose your objections are on me saying "junior partner". If its that, tbh, although your point stands that I should respond based on what I wrote on my first post, I will have to point you to my responses to solarz on that matter. They encapsulate a summary of my thoughts on this specific issue. I am not going to write it again because it will be duplicated effort.

So moving on, maybe you also take offense at the "economic colony" phrase. This was partly addressed on one of my posts to solarz on how Russia will heavily depend on Chinese high-tech in the coming years. Something new which I didn't write before is that Putin himself has said that they will freely allow Chinese companies to enter Russia's market. Expect the Western market share to be captured by China. This would allow China to do what every industrialised country does to everyone else, dump its products to their markets.

The economic colony phrase certainly carries negative meaning but I also found it as the most accurate. I will avoid using it in the future, if you have any good alternative word, I would be open to using it.

Russia will become wealthy, now how that wealth will be distributed among its people, that's another matter. People might be tempted to say "Not China's problem!", but human psychology doesn't work like that. With this new arrangement, China should aim to encourage/push Russia towards a more equal distribution of wealth that what they have currently
On this section you probably mean the last sentence where you think I advocate for interference in internal affairs aka USA 2.0. My thoughts are a lot more complex than that surface reading. I expanded a bit on them in a later post in response to someone else (CMP maybe?) who actually had a better idea than mine which I prefer tbh. My overall point was for a more sustainable partnership in the future.

You sound like trying to make USA 2.0 out of China by 1 treating allies
Btw, before throwing random words, you should at least know what relationship China and Russia currently have. The official Chinese diplomatic position is that China and Russia are not allies. If you dont even know what type of relations Russia and China have with each other, what makes you think you know enough to talk about more complicated aspects of their relationship.
 
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Phead128

Major
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Also @Phead128

We can argue the definition of terms all day long, but in the end, the meaning of terms is based on what the majority of people who use the term believe it means.

So here are the results of a google search on "junior partner international relations":

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Half the results are about how Russia is China's "junior partner", even though my search term did not include Russia, while the rest are about "junior partners" to the US.

Well guess what guys? I challenge you to find one article that calls Russia a junior partner but does not imply a subordination.

Widespread Western propaganda to manipulate words to feed their narrative all the time, doesn't change their original meaning.

For example:
  • "Social credit system" now implies "Police State" and "Tyranny", even though it has a completely innocuous definition.
  • "Re-education vocation centers" now implies "Cultural Genocide" and "Internment camps", even though it has a completely innocuous definition.
  • "Chinese weather balloons" now implies "Surveillance" and "Espionage", even though by original definition, it is completely innocuous .
  • "Win-Win Cooperation" is now implies "China winning, US lose" even though by original definition, it is completely innocuous .
Don't let them win the propaganda war, don't let them co-opt and manipulate words to feed their narrative.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
But let's not be too naive and so certain that future leaders in China will not succumb or tempted in copying some aspects of American foreign policy when China becomes unquestionably more powerful in all aspects in say 50 years. For now, China and GenSec Xi will not act like a bully or will even attempt to lord over Russia because that simply would not work and is counterproductive to China's vision for a more equitable multipolar world
As I said in a previous post, my analysis is that short-medium term China won't use that power. Even on long term, which is always uncertain and unknown to everyone, I still lean towards China still not using it.

There is no need to lord over Russia because the current arrangement is good. China buys resources from Russia (increasingly with its own currency, big win), Russia has decided/forced(by the Ukrainian war) to use the Chinese currency to trade with the rest of the world (supports China's currency, big win).

What else can Russia offer? Western propaganda of the old lost territories? China would be extremely stupid to go for something like that. The current situation is perfect, Russia by its own will, with zero Chinese pressure, has fallen to China's lap thanks to the West's idiotic actions lol.

From a IR perspective, China has been dealt a perfect IR hand, and without even needing to do anything. All thanks to Uncle Sam
 
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