Discussing Biden's Potential China Policy

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Gatekeeper

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The EU trade investment deal largely benefits Europe rather than China, because it lifts controls on foreign investment and ownership of companies that the "CCP" insisted upon up until now.

Guys what did I say earlier, the likes of him will always blame "CCP" never China

He's just a coward. The traitorous "pro-democracy" movement he supports just got stomped into paste and he just repeats banal platitudes like "Biden will unite..." like a retarded parrot. *Sigh*, is every one of China's enemies so dumb and weak? How about a real challenge for once?

Yes he is a cowards. He's ostrich as well. But our replies are not for him to debate on. Because quite frankly, he's no debator. It would present no challenge to ordinary members like ourselves.

My replies are to point out to other members here his flaws and illogical bias. He's pure hatred of everthing CCP China.

In fact I don't even know what he's doing here. I can only conclude he must be a masochist. Because almost everyday the CCP China that he despises so much advances a bit more in military and economic development, and with it, the geopolitical power play. It must be butt hurting him so much that he can't sit still for more than a minute!
 

ansy1968

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The growth of China's economy does not automatically equate to its geopolitical situation. China has had things go its way the most when it has been able to challenge opponents on an individual basis. If Biden is able to get countries to support each other more when they have disputes with China, even if the economy continues on its current path Beijing may get its way less frequently.
I think you forget that the investment deal is a hedge against the US :cool:. It's so obvious whatever angle you see it.
The EU trade investment deal largely benefits Europe rather than China, because it lifts controls on foreign investment and ownership of companies that the CCP insisted upon up until now. Although China could also benefit if it leads to an increase in EU investment, it's more a win for Brussels. China had stalled on negotiations for years because it didn't want to give up the advantages of the previous status quo.
That what they said about China entry to the WTO, look what happen after that, now they accuse China of cheating....LOL, damned if you do damned if you don't.
It may be that some European countries look the other way in the future, but at the same time the EU is not a political bloc, so even if countries like Germany decide not to get involved it doesn't mean that France wouldn't be interested in taking action. It's going to be down to how persuasive Biden and his administration is.
But a lot of countries want to join the EU, the attractiveness of collectiveness give you power and protection, that come with a price. and FYI its a unanimous decision with no negative vote.
Aquino was only President for six years and left office in 1992. Even if she did a bad job the Philippines has had nearly three decades to change policy. Marcos having 20 years to run the country into the ground was far more significant.
Six year in power she brought us back to a feudal society, being part of the oligarch elite herself which Marcos had tried to marginalized, she allow her own kind to take control key gov't asset as a reward for their struggle against Martial law especially her family members. Marcos though a dictator had built us excellent infrastructure and public utilities with good service, that makes our quality of living better than we had today.
As for the World Bank and IMF, they constantly say that dealing with corruption is vital. It's not their fault if successive governments refuse or are unable to deal with it effectively.
Early on Cory Aquino term she follow without question all the IMF and World bank recommendation. The most criminal is to sell gov't asset and utilities to private sector for a pittances if not they won't lent us any money. It's a debt trap that we still suffer until to this day. It's unfortunate cause we had no other alternative. I wish to turn back time with a prosperous China there to help, the outcome will be definitely be different and for the better.
 

bettydice

Junior Member
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Japanese are master manipulators. But the problem is they start manipulating their own population like USA. And Japan extorts from USA. While USA extorts from Japan. And that's where the Screw Up begins. Both are foxes.

Now I know why Korea sees itself as more civilized than Japan. Korea never causes trouble. Even North Korea, likes to swing its sword around but never actually attacks anyone. Civilized people, Koreans are. They get my respect.
No. Civilized people, Koreans are not. They should not get your respect.

What you said may apply to politicians (in power) in those two countries. However I view ordinary people of Japan and South Korea quite opposite.

South Korean online forums, news media and comments, Youtube and everywhere are literally flooded with explicit hatred toward China, starting from simple racial slurs to celebrating Nanjing massacre (and other deaths in China as well), praying for Sanxia dams to collapse and wishing Trump to break down Communist China into pieces, just to name a few. China-bashing and hating have been popular and widely supported among general South Korean populace without brake. It's just that some politicians incline to North Korea (whose allies being China and Russia) for ethnic reasons. Those politicians view the US as occupying forces that prevent Korean reunification.

There is strong anti-China sentiment in Japan too but I see most of that come from politicians and politicalized people. Among ordinary people, most Japanese are apolitical and I see a lot of of humble Japanese people who are friendly to China and there are plenty of China-Japan exchange based on civilian friendship in Japan. Plus I see Japanese media much less biased and less nationalistic than Korean one.
 

NiuBiDaRen

Brigadier
Registered Member
No. Civilized people, Koreans are not. They should not get your respect.

What you said may apply to politicians (in power) in those two countries. However I view ordinary people of Japan and South Korea quite opposite.

South Korean online forums, news media and comments, Youtube and everywhere are literally flooded with explicit hatred toward China, starting from simple racial slurs to celebrating Nanjing massacre (and other deaths in China as well), praying for Sanxia dams to collapse and wishing Trump to break down Communist China into pieces, just to name a few. China-bashing and hating have been popular and widely supported among general South Korean populace without brake. It's just that some politicians incline to North Korea (whose allies being China and Russia) for ethnic reasons. Those politicians view the US as occupying forces that prevent Korean reunification.

There is strong anti-China sentiment in Japan too but I see most of that come from politicians and politicalized people. Among ordinary people, most Japanese are apolitical and I see a lot of of humble Japanese people who are friendly to China and there are plenty of China-Japan exchange based on civilian friendship in Japan. Plus I see Japanese media much less biased and less nationalistic than Korean one.
Hmm interesting. Well I have Korean friends and I used to talk to them about China, and I manage to redirect their hatred towards Japan. Every time they say something bad about China, I just say Japanese colonization and they start getting mad. Works like a charm each time.

You can also mention how China came to Yi Sun-shin's aid in the 1500s. They love that guy, besides Mr Sejong.

Actually Koreans are also racist towards Chosonjeok 조선족.
 
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horse

Colonel
Registered Member
Trump didn't work with other countries. He tried extorting more money out of countries like South Korea and Japan, pissed off the EU by siding with Putin, etc.

The growth of China's economy does not automatically equate to its geopolitical situation. China has had things go its way the most when it has been able to challenge opponents on an individual basis. If Biden is able to get countries to support each other more when they have disputes with China, even if the economy continues on its current path Beijing may get its way less frequently.

The EU trade investment deal largely benefits Europe rather than China, because it lifts controls on foreign investment and ownership of companies that the CCP insisted upon up until now. Although China could also benefit if it leads to an increase in EU investment, it's more a win for Brussels. China had stalled on negotiations for years because it didn't want to give up the advantages of the previous status quo.

It may be that some European countries look the other way in the future, but at the same time the EU is not a political bloc, so even if countries like Germany decide not to get involved it doesn't mean that France wouldn't be interested in taking action. It's going to be down to how persuasive Biden and his administration is.


I wouldn't say "much richer". Some companies were able to increase their profits but others laid off workers when jobs got moved overseas. But whoever benefited the most, the point is that international trade and economic reforms are what helped China.

Hmm, I'm not sure you could say that the interests of business and oligarchs don't rule in China, it's just that they're part of the CCP now. China's public spending outside of defence and internal security remains fairly low - e.g. around 5% of GDP is spent on healthcare, as opposed to 6% in Vietnam, 7.5% in South Korea, etc. That's the interests of business and the elites at play, as they don't want higher taxes to pay for more healthcare spending.

Aquino was only President for six years and left office in 1992. Even if she did a bad job the Philippines has had nearly three decades to change policy. Marcos having 20 years to run the country into the ground was far more significant.

As for the World Bank and IMF, they constantly say that dealing with corruption is vital. It's not their fault if successive governments refuse or are unable to deal with it effectively.
The Anglo-world is suffering from strategic confusion.

It is in denial too.

This situation will not change, apparently.

China is doing one thing and only one thing.

China is offering a better deal.

Unless the west can offer to it members a better deal, or other countries outside of the west a better deal, then we should fully expect the Chinese footprint to increase globally, and to continue increasing its raw power influence at the expense of those who oppose that.

RCEP and CAI, those are just deals. The important point about them too is those kind of deals America cannot do.

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Obama's TPP was rejected by the American government.
 

NiuBiDaRen

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Biden Plans to Build a Grand Alliance to Counter China. It Won’t Be Easy.​

The president-elect wants a coalition of democracies to pressure Beijing to curtail what he sees as unfair practices; Xi Jinping has been thinking along the same lines
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With tensions between the U.S. and China rising on many fronts, President-elect Joe Biden will take office aiming to align Western democracies to broadly pressure Beijing, a clear break with President Trump’s go-it-alone approach.

Chinese President Xi Jinping has been thinking along the same lines and is a step ahead, setting up an overt competition for global leadership. He has been busy in recent years trying to draw traditional U.S. allies into China’s economic orbit.

Moves this week by both Washington and Beijing are forcing China higher on the Biden agenda. Upon taking office he’ll need to decide whether to overturn recent Trump administration actions. They include delisting Chinese telecommunications companies on the New York Stock Exchange, banning transactions with Chinese-connected apps, including the Alipay payment platform, and blacklisting China’s largest computer chip maker and other firms.

Mr. Trump fought with allies on trade and security issues as he took on China and brought actions domestically that have been tied up in the courts, including seeking to shut down or force the sale of the Chinese-owned TikTok video-sharing app in the U.S.

Even so, Mr. Trump changed the tenor of the U.S.-China relationship by confronting Beijing on a number of issues. He also helped shape a growing consensus in Congress and the public that China isn’t just a competitor but also a threat to American global leadership.

Mr. Biden argues America needs to bring multilateral pressure to bear. Otherwise, Beijing can pit one country against another by offering preferential access to its vast market.

“China always saw an escape hatch through their economic relationships with others,” said Jake Sullivan, Mr. Biden’s choice for national security adviser. “Only by closing off those escape hatches would you get China to curb their trade abuses.”

Given the lure of the vast Chinese market, Mr. Biden could face a tough time convincing allies to sign up for a united front against Beijing. China and the European Union, for instance, recently reached an investment treaty. U.S. allies say they can’t be sure of America’s long-term commitment to an international alliance, given four years of a unilateral approach.

China’s leaders will try to ease the tension with the U.S. that deepened during the Trump administration, according to Chinese officials. Beijing plans to dispatch its top diplomat, Yang Jiechi, to Washington shortly after Mr. Biden is sworn in to explore how the two countries could cooperate, said people with knowledge of the matter.

Short-term, there is a trade war to tend to. One issue is what price China is willing to pay—if any—for the U.S. to lift tariffs on about $370 billion in Chinese exports to the U.S. Biden advisers said the president-elect won’t roll them back soon. He plans to analyze the impact of the levies on the American economy and consult with allies before acting. Business groups that opposed the tariffs now say he should negotiate for concessions.

Beijing seems willing to wait. “Biden will sooner or later launch a renegotiation of the trade deal, as the current agreement is unrealistic,” said Shi Yihong, a foreign-policy adviser to the central government, referring to China’s purchasing targets. “A renegotiation is also in line with China’s wishes.”

Longer-term, Mr. Biden’s multilateralist strategy will be informed by one view he does share with the Trump administration, that China poses a broad challenge to U.S. economic and political leadership in the 21st century. The president-elect criticizes Beijing for robbing U.S. companies of technology, unfairly subsidizing its state-owned firms and suppressing human rights.

Some advisers who worked with him in the Obama administration, during which Washington cooperated with Beijing over the global financial crisis and other issues, now say the era of engagement is over, although they still look to Beijing for help on climate change and other Biden priorities.

“The trick is to navigate this in a way where we have all the tools we need to succeed in these various competitions with China,” said Antony Blinken, who served the Obama administration and is Mr. Biden’s choice for Secretary of State, “but at the same time keeping open channels to cooperation where it’s in our interest.”

Flagship effort
Mr. Biden’s flagship effort will be his Summit for Democracy. It is designed, he wrote in Foreign Affairs magazine last year, “to renew the spirit and shared purpose of the nations of the free world.” The plan is modeled after a 2012 nuclear-security summit President Obama convened to limit the spread of nuclear material.

Mr. Obama’s summit included China’s leader. Mr. Biden’s is designed to exclude Mr. Xi and other authoritarian leaders.

During the campaign, Mr. Biden talked of creating “a united front of friends and partners to challenge China’s abusive behavior.” Although some former Obama China experts doubt he will describe the summit that way, it would be a clear message from the meeting.

Biden advisers said they also will push more focused forms of multilateralism. Mr. Sullivan, the Biden national-security adviser, named the Plaza Accord of 1985 where the U.S. and its allies intervened to weaken the dollar as a successful model of international economic cooperation.

He praised the American-Japanese-Australian pressure on China to lift its stranglehold on rare-earth minerals needed to manufacture high-technology products. Mr. Biden’s choice for U.S. Trade Representative, Katherine Tai, led the Obama administration’s rare-earth push.

The Biden team plans to recruit leading democracies for alliances on technology issues, his advisers said, including development of new telecommunications technologies that will lessen dependence on 5G equipment from Huawei Technologies Co. Biden advisers complain that the Trump administration’s efforts to block Huawei haven’t succeeded because the U.S. never developed an effective 5G alternative.

Several proposals would block sales to China of advanced semiconductor-manufacturing technology, dominated by firms in the U.S., Japan and the Netherlands, to try to keep Chinese semiconductor makers several generations behind.

“There’s a division in the world between techno-democracies and techno-autocracies,” Mr. Blinken said. “The techno-democracies have not done a very good job of organizing ourselves.”

A growing backlash among U.S. allies against aggressive Chinese behavior could play into Mr. Biden’s multilateralist hand. Beijing’s tightening grip on Hong Kong and bellicose diplomacy have added to tensions.

Rhetorically, at least, the Biden team has made clear it will make human rights issues a priority. “The Biden-Harris administration will stand with the people of Hong Kong and against Beijing’s crackdown on democracy,” Mr. Blinken tweeted Tuesday night after Hong Kong police arrested opposition politicians.

Practically, the president-elect’s options are limited. Mr. Trump largely ignored Hong Kong and other democracy issues, such as Chinese repression of Muslims in the western region of Xinjiang, for much of his tenure, though during the past year, his administration sanctioned Hong Kong officials involved in the crackdown and blocked exports of cotton from Xinjiang, among other actions. Mr. Trump didn’t take more drastic steps, which would be available to his successor, including cutting off Chinese banks from the dollar or seeking to delink the Hong Kong dollar from the greenback, which would likely hurt U.S. financial institutions in China.

One alternative that has been widely discussed: The U.S. could allow easy immigration for Hong Kong residents caught in the crackdown.

Some Biden advisers believe that the new administration will be as divided on human-rights issues, as the Clinton administration was at the start. Eventually President Clinton stopped pressing China on human rights and focused on building economic relations.

Potential reluctance
Potential partners might be reluctant to sign up for a U.S. effort to take on China after four years of Trump unilateralism—and with the possibility Mr. Trump or another similar politician could regain the presidency in 2024.

“You’d be asking countries to forego opportunities in the only major economy in the world that’s growing to do what?” said Jorge Guajardo, a former Mexican ambassador to China who now advises companies on the China market: “To ally with the U.S., which has proved to be an unreliable partner.”
 

NiuBiDaRen

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(continued)

A summit invitation list also could be controversial. Including Taiwan would infuriate Beijing. Adding India, despite the government’s mounting sectarianism, would raise questions about attendees’ democratic bona fides; leaving out India would weaken any alliance.

“India will not accept conditionalities or stipulations by the U.S. in order to join hands against China,” said Sreeram Chaulia, dean at O.P. Jindal Global University’s School of International Affairs, in Sonipat, India.

The Trump administration regarded international economic conclaves as do-nothing events that diluted U.S. interests. A senior Trump official said the Biden team risks getting trapped in talk-a-thons, rather than taking the lead.

“You take steps that no one else is willing to take and they follow you,” said the official. “It’s like a slinky moving down a staircase.”

And Western nations fear alienating Beijing and its market. The EU completed a bilateral investment deal with China in late December after seven years of negotiation. That put Mr. Xi in a stronger position with the new U.S. administration and served as reminder that it couldn’t take European support for granted.

Mr. Sullivan seemed to acknowledge the changed circumstance in a Dec. 21 tweet before the deal was finished: “The Biden-Harris administration would welcome early consultations with our European partners on our common concerns about China’s economic practices.”

To get European nations on board, the U.S. would need to lift steel tariffs imposed by the Trump administration, said trade experts. But backing off would outrage some of industrial unions and their Democratic backers.

China’s agenda
Beijing is pursuing its own multilateral agenda to further draw U.S. allies into its economic orbit. Beijing once preferred dealing one-on-one with trading partners, figuring its economy would give it an edge. The trade battle with the Trump administration has prompted a rethinking.

Mr. Xi sees multilateral approaches as more productive, Chinese officials said. China has stepped up efforts to work through international organizations including the WTO and United Nations. “If you control the rules,” said an official with knowledge of the leadership’s thinking, “you can control the game.”

In addition, China has offered to share its Covid-19 vaccines with African nations in a bid to uphold itself as a benevolent world power.

In November, Beijing signed a regional trade pact, the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, with 14 other nations, including Japan, South Korea and Australia. Beijing’s interest in completing the pact grew with each trade sanction from the Trump administration.

Chinese officials would tell Japanese counterparts their trade deals gave them leverage over the U.S. by giving Tokyo alternative markets, said an Asian diplomat involved in the talks. “They now look at RCEP as their leverage over the U.S.,” the diplomat said, because the pact will boost trade between China and its member countries even if the U.S. continues to weaken its economic ties to China.

Recently, Mr. Xi said China would “favorably consider” joining an 11-nation Asia-Pacific trade pact the Obama administration championed, the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership. That agreement would require China to allow free flows of data across its borders and revamp its state-owned companies—the kind of changes the Trump administration couldn’t get Beijing to accept in bilateral trade talks.

In 2017, Mr. Trump pulled the U.S. out of an early version of the deal, then called simply the Trans-Pacific Partnership, complaining it was a job killer. The pact has become so toxic with labor unions and Democratic lawmakers that Mr. Biden says it needs to be renegotiated before he would consider joining.

Beijing is capitalizing on the irony of considering joining a pact with standards set by U.S. negotiators but rejected by a U.S. president. Skeptics question Beijing’s willingness to make the necessary changes, saying it could be a way to tie up the West in negotiations.

Mr. Xi does see it in his interest to revive a working relationship with the U.S. president, according to Chinese officials. As he tries to ensure a tradition-busting third term, they said, he knows he will be judged internally on how he handles U.S. relations.

Still, Beijing is eyeing the new administration warily, seeing Mr. Biden’s reference to Mr. Xi as a “thug” as a warning sign, said Chinese officials. While Mr. Xi wants to improve relations, he has also made it clear he is intent on building Chinese power and modernizing its economy.

From Mr. Xi’s perspective, sovereignty issues take precedence. He has asserted control over Hong Kong and Xinjiang—both of which China considers internal issues—despite criticism from abroad and has empowered his diplomats to strike back forcefully against anyone seen as smearing the country.

The biggest potential flashpoint remains Taiwan, which China views as a renegade province. Last year, the Chinese military stepped up exercises targeting the island, but there is no sign Beijing is preparing an invasion.

Tariff tensions
Mr. Biden must fit the tariff conundrum into his new-multilateralism strategy. The Trump administration assessed tariffs on $370 billion of Chinese goods, three-quarters of what China sends the U.S. annually, during a two-year trade war. That culminated in a deal signed a year ago in which China agreed to dramatically increase purchases of U.S. goods, although it has so far fallen short of its pledged shipments.

The Business Roundtable, an association of America’s largest companies, and other business groups—China’s traditional allies in Washington—want Mr. Biden to use tariff elimination to get concessions from China on issues that eluded the Trump administration, including subsidies for Chinese firms and predatory behavior by state-owned companies.

The Biden team hasn’t made commitments to new talks. That is yet another thing for Mr. Biden to discuss with allies first, Mr. Sullivan said: “He’s not going to lock himself into a particular approach.”

One question is whether Mr. Biden will accept calls by former Clinton Treasury Secretary Larry Summers and others to hold an early Group-of-20 leaders’ summit to hammer out ways to boost the global economy and deal with the pandemic. That would be modeled on the G-20 session Mr. Obama organized shortly after he took office in 2009 to combat the financial crisis.

A G-20 would give a starring role to China and probably include an early meeting of the Presidents Biden and Xi. The outreach would suggest a different direction in U.S. policy than a united front against Beijing.

Charlene Barshefsky, the former Clinton Trade Representative who negotiated China’s entry into the WTO, warns against an early Biden-Xi meeting. “Given the strategic implications—bilateral, regional, and global,” she said, “this is a complex exercise, not a photo op.”
 
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