South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

shen

Senior Member
US State Department official claims reclamation is bad for feng shui :D


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“Reclamation isn’t necessarily a violation of international law, but it’s certainly violating the harmony, the feng shui, of Southeast Asia, and it’s certainly violating China’s claim to be a good neighbor and a benign and non-threatening power,” Daniel Russel, assistant secretary of state for East Asia, said in a telephone interview.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
That's a common misconception.
If so, it is an easy misconception to clear up.

One official PRC press release could do so.

That's why I said in my post that this is really the single point that has to get hammered out.

If it does, and if your contention is a true reflection...then I believe the US and PRC can come to an understanding and an arrangement in the SCS without misunderstandings that lead to disagreement and contention.
 

shen

Senior Member
If so, it is an easy misconception to clear up.

One official PRC press release could do so.

That's why I said in my post that this is really the single point that has to get hammered out.

If it does, and if your contention is a true reflection...then I believe the US and PRC can come to an understanding and an arrangement in the SCS without misunderstandings that lead to disagreement and contention.

Nothing about territorial dispute easy unfortunately. People tend to get emotional about that sort of things. I wrote about one possible reason why I think the Chinese government may be hesitant to clarify the nine dash line claim at this time in my earlier post.

Another angle we have consider is that US interest in Asia is not just about navigation rights, it want to be seen as the final arbiter in disputes not just in Asia, but all around the world. America want to be seen as a reliable ally to Philippines and Japan. Although the official position is that America doesn't take side in the territorial dispute, its actions say otherwise. If China clarify its position now, it would weaken it negotiating position and still have no guarantee that the US won't interfere in the territorial dispute.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
If so, it is an easy misconception to clear up.

One official PRC press release could do so.

That's why I said in my post that this is really the single point that has to get hammered out.

If it does, and if your contention is a true reflection...then I believe the US and PRC can come to an understanding and an arrangement in the SCS without misunderstandings that lead to disagreement and contention.

In some of the articles it said that the US has previously flown and sailed close and up to the 12 nm boundary of Chinese islands, and China has often radioed and warned that they were close to Chinese territory. I've never heard them say anything regarding
I think a point of potential concern is the matter of EEZs and free passage as well as surveillance issues (stemming from the Impeccable incident and similar confrontations), but the fact that the US has not mentioned any such issues in the SCS could mean China is simply not enforcing it in the SCS.
Also, do islands even have an EEZ? If not, then the fact that China is only warning US planes and ships via the 12 nm limit may reflect its position in the SCS issue... or at least the degree that it is willing to press it against the US at present.

Unfortunately I think China is veering on the "safe" side via strategic ambiguity, due to the reason Shen said regarding weakening China's negotiating position. In other words, its ambiguity is due to a lack of mutual trust regarding intentions.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Not going to address every line item Climax but some key points you made I like to respond to.

You saying that Vietnam, Fillipinos or Malaysia (and seem like China alway forget about Malay in their complain) was building first, but of course we do it first, because at before 1988, China's nowhere in Spratly.

The disputed has hardest part: China's claim, which was not only Spratly and Paracel, but also 90% of SCS, but no detail to explain what is it and what come along with it.

That's the misconception either rival claimants intentionally or subconsciously make. China sees Taiwan's claims and actions in the SCS as part of its own, you know, the one China principle which they have the UN and the US accepting. So prior to 1988, China's presence in the Spratlys would be based on Taiwan's administration of Taiping Island. And there wasn't any reclamation going on then but as you say, the rival claimants started first. So again, on this principle, China is not the offender. It decided to go big and now all the rivals are fretting over it.

I do believe China is intentionally being ambiguous on it's dashes because it gives them an advantage. However, before the bashing begins, I like to ask what exactly is Vietnam's claims because I've searched high and low and found very little on the official claim. Some media maps show Vietnam's lines reaching out to 80% of the SCS so perhaps the ambiguity serves Vietnam's interests as well. Malaysia's and Brunei's are rather straightforward as they only use the EEZ argument. The Philippine's seems to make an open declaration of its claims but it too is overreaching. None of the western most Spratlys are within the Philippine EEZ but they make a land claim based on Marcos's decree that was decades later than China/Taiwan's claims. It draws an EEZ boundary against Taiwan that maximizes it's 200 nm boundary and neglects Taiwan's (doesn't work that way). So the hardest part isn't just China's claim. Both Vietnam and the Philippine's claims are just as difficult and the fact that neither of them have shown any gestures of compromising means China holding firm isn't the odd man out. There was a joint marine seismic undertaking a few years back but the Philippines had to pull the sovereignty issue into play. Vietnam didn't want to join but they did a 180 and hopped on board. So the one chance of joint development was scuttled.


Most Chinese forget Paracel was a disputed also, which was reclaiming non-stop by China.

Actually most Chinese will probably tell you Vietnam is the one reneging on its acknowledgement of China's territorial claims in 1958. It is the same govt in place today that made this acknowledgement. Most Chinese will simply view Vietnam trying to take their territory.


And don't try to be stupid, at before 2010, did China had enough resource and power to do this kind of reclamation !?

China Govt planned it, and when time has came, do it.

I would advise you to refrain from the insults. It is such actions that make the mods lock these threads up.

There's no doubt the US makes plans for nuclear war. Does that mean the US intends to start one? So your statement makes no sense. It would be a failure of the Chinese planners to not have contingencies for the SCS issue and it's a matter of what will trigger those plans into action.


You can make reclamation on big Islands at Paracel, maybe only Vietnam will complain, but in Spratly, its change status quo, change de facto.

Just your perception. To the Chinese, Vietnam's constant refining of their possessions in the SCS is upsetting the status quo so they need to counter.


So there was not provocative activity or hypocrite from Vietnam or other party.
China Govt was accused because they tried to change de facto, made reef under wanter become big Islands, this will give China a advantge in bilaterally way negotiation.

Vietnam can do the same things, but not fast as China did. Joshuatree had post one pic about Sand Cay as proof.

Not true, at the beginning of this thread, I already posted more pics and links to Vietnamese reclamation. The reclamation at Cornwallis South Reef is reclamation on a reef, not an island.
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ManilaBoy45

Junior Member
South China Sea Erupts In New Tensions As John Kerry’s Bid To Calm Waters Goes Stale

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The South China Sea is seeing turbulence again, as China looks for a way to navigate nuclear submarines in disputed waters amid a U.S. presence in the area. The Washington Post reports that
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claims the South China Sea is native territory, despite the mutual claims of five neighboring countries. Countries like the Philippines and Vietnam are more welcoming of a U.S. presence, if only as a deterrent to aggression in the region.U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry met with Chinese leaders during a trip which ended on Sunday, before heading to other Asian nations. He raised issue with the controversial construction projects China is now conducting in the Sea. AP reports that member countries of the
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(ASEAN) are alarmed by the projects.

Obama administration officials have declined to comment on reports that it may deploy military assets, or that it is considering a demonstration of freedom of navigation within 12 nautical miles of the islands’ notional territorial zone. But they have said many of the features claimed by China in the disputed Spratlys are submerged and do not carry territorial rights, and maintained that China cannot ‘manufacture sovereignty’ with its reclamation projects…”
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
South China Sea Erupts In New Tensions As John Kerry’s Bid To Calm Waters Goes Stale

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Obama administration officials have declined...maintained that China cannot ‘manufacture sovereignty’ with its reclamation projects.”
I do not think that is going to fly.

When China creates an island of 2 km squared with an airfield, infrastructure, admin and other buildings including housing, a lagoon, docks, etc., etc. And that new island is made of terra firma...time will prove the Chinese claim correct.

If China houses people there, builds facilities for them, plants fauna and landscapes the place...and if they do a good job with the reclamation and that landscaping takes...continued denials will become more and more ludicrous on their face.

Such a statement by this administration is, IMGHO, simply a way for them to kick the can down the road and avoid doing anything (either physically or diplomatically) to truly address, negotiate, and resolve the issue.
 

Engineer

Major
If so, it is an easy misconception to clear up.

One official PRC press release could do so.

That's why I said in my post that this is really the single point that has to get hammered out.

If it does, and if your contention is a true reflection...then I believe the US and PRC can come to an understanding and an arrangement in the SCS without misunderstandings that lead to disagreement and contention.
There really is no misconception other the that manufactured by China's opponents. And for that reason, it is completely pointless to clarify anything.


I do not think that is going to fly.

When China creates an island of 2 km squared with an airfield, infrastructure, admin and other buildings including housing, a lagoon, docks, etc., etc. And that new island is made of terra firma...time will prove the Chinese claim correct.

If China houses people there, builds facilities for them, plants fauna and landscapes the place...and if they do a good job with the reclamation and that landscaping takes...continued denials will become more and more ludicrous on their face.

Such a statement by this administration is, IMGHO, simply a way for them to kick the can down the road and avoid doing anything (either physically or diplomatically) to truly address, negotiate, and resolve the issue.
Not so. The administration is misguiding public into believing a narrative where all the land hold by China are artificial. Much like the story about Iraq having WMD, it is a media campaign for justifying actions later on.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
There really is no misconception other the that manufactured by China's opponents. And for that reason, it is completely pointless to clarify anything.
Perhaps in your mind, eng...but you hardly speak for everyone.

Several posters here on SD have recognized it and spoken to it...which is why I made the post in response.

China needs to clarify what they mean by the 9 Dash. They need to clarify their intentions.

For example, they need to make it clear that they are not claiming ownership of the vast majority of the South China Sea. They need to ease tensions associated with those nations who fear that this is exactly what they mean.

Whenever there are tensions like this between nations, the thing to do (on both sides I might add) is to clarify positions, make clear exactly what is meant and give reassurance to those neighbors and involved nations that, for example, the PRC will not claim an absolute EEZ around each and every island and reef, regardless of other claims in surrounding locations...so that the resources become the exclusive right or property or control of the PRC..

This can be done by sitting down with all the parties involved, including the United States (because like it or not, the US has interests in the area, even if they do not own a single one of those reefs or islands...or even claim any of them). The SLOCs through there are vital to world-wide commerce, to and from the US and to and from US allies and friends.

So, again, all parties clarifying these positions is clearly needed because there are nations that have serious concerns.

Standing on some kind of a high horse saying that there is nothing to clarify does not help alleviate these concerns in the least...in fact it makes it considerably worse.
 
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