Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

[aksha]

navy day pics. by Danish Siddiqui

navy day pics. Shailesh Andrade

 

[A Bar Brother]

In the end of the day, all the major air force around the world are picking F-35 for good reason.

Replace "good" with "political" please. Many of them don't even have a 5th gen requirement.

If Rafale's electronic suite was that great (equivalent to F-35's systems), it would've not lost out to F-15 in Singapore and Korea.

The F-15 won in Singapore because it was cheaper than the Rafale. Dassault's spent $5 Billion on Spectra. It is not a cheap aircraft. In Korea, there was uncertainty with the Rafale's development and the Koreans always choose American. Let's not fool ourselves with either country.

India's decision wasn't political. The two best aircraft were shortlisted.

As for your first statement,

presence of a system with similar functionality does not equate to equal capability.

This goes either way. DDM-NG is a more recent development compared to the EODAS. The OSF is being upgraded with a new IRST, a newer development compared to the one on the F-35. All other types of equipment that was missing on the F3 is being fixed on the F3+ and F4 versions, like AESA radar, SATCOM, new laser pod, new HMDS. Most of it is new development. And comes with a two seat version.

The F-35 should have been available back in 2010-12 period when its avionics were the most advanced. With the huge delay followed by the introduction of more advanced systems by other competitors, the situation has changed. By 2018, the Rafale F3R will be equal in some aspects and ahead in some compared to the F-35 and the F-35 won't have achieved FOC until 2021. 2023 onwards will see the start of the MLU process for Rafale, and this will see the introduction of a new radar and new EW suite, pushing it way ahead of the F-35. As of today, the French have launched a study on developing a new radar and also upgrading the Spectra with GaN, a step ahead of the F-35.

 

[A Bar Brother]

The F-35's radar, IRST and other sensors are superior to the Rafale (for instance, the F-35 has a much larger radar). Not to mention avionics like the F-35 helmet.

Larger radar doesn't necessarily mean more advanced. Bars is a much larger radar, but less advanced. However larger radar means more T/R modules. We don't know the actual numbers on RBE-2AA or APG-81, nor do we know the gain and power output of either to have a fair comparison.

As for the SPECTRA, do you honestly think it's more advanced than the Next Generation Jammer or its current equivalents? If so, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you...

Spectra has a different function compared to NGJ. NGJ is not a self protection suite. In case the F-35 is ever equipped with active cancellation technology, aka, a system similar to as advertized on Spectra, then it will be a different system, not the NGJ.

NGJ is simply a podded jammer with a lot of power.

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It is “initially focused heavily on the air-to-ground mission for air defense.”

This is the most important quote from the article, and probably shows why the NGJ and Spectra are incomparable.

“From an operational standpoint it’s pretty independent. It’s not very intrusive into the aircraft’s avionics.”

You see, there is no sensor fusion. The NGJ merely uses its own threat library to deal with the threat, that's not the case with Spectra. Spectra is an amalgamation of the radar, IRST, DIRCM, DDM-NG, RWR, interferometers and other sensors into one single unit. So it is, in theory and practice, a more advanced system compared to the NGJ.

The bridge in Brooklyn has been oversold. There are newer and better bridges today.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Well, no . In case of massive losses during war , no modern fighter type could be produced rapidly enough to replace losses. For example, projections for NATO vs Warsaw Pact conflict estimated decline of air power for both sides to 50% within weeks .

Of course, chances that India finds itself in such conflict are negligible, but purely theoretically speaking if India loses let's say 30+ Rafales, those loses would be permanent because I doubt IAF would want to continue with same (very expensive) type again .

India has lost much more than 30 and had them replaced with the same jets in a few years during past wars. This depends on when the jets are lost. If India loses 50 Mig-21s/27s tomorrow, the replacements will be MKIs. If India loses 50 MKIs tomorrow, the IAF will more likely get 50 more because the infrastructure and manpower is already available.

India has replaced old Jaguars with 37 new ones as early as 2002 with delivery completing at the end of the decade. So there isn't a fixed timeframe as to when the MKI or Rafale will be replaced as long as the production facilities still exist. The MKI's production facilities will exist until the end of the decade, while Rafale's will continue to exist until 2030-35.

So until 2020, IAF will have access to facilities that can manufacture nearly a 100 aircraft a year. After 2020, FGFA, Rafale and LCA will help maintain that 100/year number, maybe more, since we don't know how big the FGFA production lines will be in both Russia and India.

 

[Equation]

I like this image of the bayonets of fire. Are these actual Indian Naval personnel or midshipmen (cadets)?

Nice...now I need is a skateboard.

 

[Jeff Head]

Replace "good" with "political" please. Many of them don't even have a 5th gen requirement.

Bar bro, this is a very lame arguement, anbd getting to be tiresome.

That arguiument is made because the fact is, those countries are placing their orders with the F-35.

It is an insult to those countries and their militaries to insinuate that they all are simple political. That is absolutely not the case. Those folks know a LOT more about the overall capabilities of the aircraft...now, and in the future, than you do, or most anyone on this forum. And they are making the decisions out of the overall best security interests of their nation. Period.

So, stop with the meaningiless "uh, they are doing it for political purposes because system Y is really better than system X except for the politics," bravo sierra arguements.

Jeff Head
SD SUPER MODERATOR

Thanks.

 

[Skywatcher]

Larger radar doesn't necessarily mean more advanced. Bars is a much larger radar, but less advanced. However larger radar means more T/R modules. We don't know the actual numbers on RBE-2AA or APG-81, nor do we know the gain and power output of either to have a fair comparison.

Based on what we do know, US AESA technology is advanced to that of France. Larger radars of the same technology type are more powerful and capable.

Spectra has a different function compared to NGJ. NGJ is not a self protection suite. In case the F-35 is ever equipped with active cancellation technology, aka, a system similar to as advertized on Spectra, then it will be a different system, not the NGJ.


NGJ is simply a podded jammer with a lot of power.

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This is the most important quote from the article, and probably shows why the NGJ and Spectra are incomparable.

My goodness, do you simply not read your own sources first to check if they contradict your statemets.

Perhaps the most intriguing tidbit from our conversation, which occurred July 2, was Yuse’s mention of “an AESA array that can do EW, coms, radar, SIGINT all at the same time.” Most observers know that AESA can handle EW and radar. But there’s been very little public discussion of AESA’s ability to perform Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) or its ability to serve as a communications array.

That sort of EW encompasses active cancellation.

You see, there is no sensor fusion. The NGJ merely uses its own threat library to deal with the threat, that's not the case with Spectra. Spectra is an amalgamation of the radar, IRST, DIRCM, DDM-NG, RWR, interferometers and other sensors into one single unit. So it is, in theory and practice, a more advanced system compared to the NGJ.

The bridge in Brooklyn has been oversold. There are newer and better bridges today.

Um, the F-35 does sensor fusion of its IRST, DIRCM, RWR, and other sensors too.

 

[thunderchief]

Larger radar doesn't necessarily mean more advanced. Bars is a much larger radar, but less advanced. However larger radar means more T/R modules. We don't know the actual numbers on RBE-2AA or APG-81, nor do we know the gain and power output of either to have a fair comparison.

According to Indian sources, Bars radar has bigger or equal max range then RBE-2AA . Size of antenna is very important . Text from certain Indian forum :

Apart from the regular differences between PESA and AESA, the Bars has a much larger antenna compared to RBE-2AA.

There are two different version of the Bars PESA. We don't know which batches of the MKI have the second, but we know that the Russian version of the MKI has the Bars Mk2.

From what we already know, Bars Mk1 can detect a F-16 from 160Km away while RBE-2 PESA does the same from 120 Km away. But the quality of the software may be better on the RBE-2 since it is a later design. RBE-2 can track more targets than Bars Mk1 and it is much more capable in ground attack.

Bars Mk2 and RBE-2AA are said to have doubled the tracking ranges over their predecessors. The figures are unknown. So, in terms of target detection I would put RBE-2AA between Bars Mk1 and Bars Mk2.

So, it's like RBE-2 PESA << Bars Mk1 << RBE-2AA << Bars Mk2.

In terms of output peak power,
Bars Mk1 = 4.5 KW
Bars Mk2 = 7 KW
RBE-2 PESA = 8 KW
RBE-2 AA = ~15 KW

So, the doubling of range has come a lot from larger transmitter powers apart from newer signal processing techniques. Smaller the radar, lesser is the resolution, so that's an important reason why Bars has greater range in comparison to RBE-2.

Average power is similar for all since Bars has 25% duty cycle while French radars have 10%.

Early MKIs come with slower processing compared to what's on Rafale. But today we don't know. New MC and PSPs have been made by HAL and Russia had imported the MC from India for their MKI version with the new radar.

 

[thunderchief]

India has lost much more than 30 and had them replaced with the same jets in a few years during past wars. This depends on when the jets are lost. If India loses 50 Mig-21s/27s tomorrow, the replacements will be MKIs. If India loses 50 MKIs tomorrow, the IAF will more likely get 50 more because the infrastructure and manpower is already available.

You are talking about cheap and expendable fighters like Mig-21 (or Hunters, Su-7, Gnat etc ). They were designed to be easily produced in large quantities and the price was relatively low .

On the other hand, Rafale is expensive and production is time-consuming (like any other modern fighter) . As a system, Rafale is much more complex then Mig-21 and similar . If India loses 50 or more Su-30 MKI or Rafale, nothing could replace them quickly , and I don't even want to talk about cost .

 

[A Bar Brother]

Bar bro, this is a very lame arguement, anbd getting to be tiresome.

That arguiument is made because the fact is, those countries are placing their orders with the F-35.

It is an insult to those countries and their militaries to insinuate that they all are simple political. That is absolutely not the case. Those folks know a LOT more about the overall capabilities of the aircraft...now, and in the future, than you do, or most anyone on this forum. And they are making the decisions out of the overall best security interests of their nation. Period.

Then how do you explain the Koreans backtracking on the F-15SE? If the F-35 was always meant to be chosen, they never needed a competition. How do you explain the Canadians running from pillar to post talking about a new jet that is not the F-35? They will also buy the F-35, just like the Koreans.

The Japanese settled for the F-35 because the F-22 was denied to them, the same as the Australians. Allow them the F-22 and they will backtrack on their orders for the F-35, or merely restrict the numbers of their current orders.

It was the same for the Swiss, the air force was very vocal about wanting the Rafale but were screwed over by the MoD. That evaluation leak wasn't an accidental leak.

You forget something very important. It is not the military which chooses the aircraft, it is the govt which does. So I have not insulted any military anywhere on the planet that is backed by a democratic govt. There are plenty of times when the Indian military also gets something they didn't want because the MoD is the final decision maker. Govts fall under the pressure of larger govts, this is a fact. Even countries like India are not immune from it, and nobody can blame the military for it.

I admit some countries that decided on the F-35 need the F-35, like Israel, Japan and Australia (though all three will prioritize the F-22 over the F-35), but most other countries don't need the F-35. They are part of the program for two reasons, they back the US and were promised a cheaper jet than what it is today. The Dutch rejected the Gripen in the hopes of a cheaper F-35 too.