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Zool

Zool

Junior Member
A Bar Brother said:
The liability is to do with quality production and timely delivery.

This is impossible from an operational PoV. IAF needs the jets as of last decade.
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Yes but the Liability concerning quality assurance and on-time delivery connects back to the requested TOT.

India is asking for all technology related to base material manufacturing and then sub-component manufacturing, to be brought in-country, for local assembly into RTF Rafale's. That is all part of the TOT and India's ability to absorb it and convert into a final manufactured product. The alternative sans TOT and the real liability issue, would be knock-down kits similar to the MKI's, where most materials and components are manufactured by the vendor and shipped to India for assembly. Or skip the 'Make in India' directive and buy Dassault manufactured Rafale's off the shelf so to speak - cheaper and faster.

As to the need for Rafale to fulfill immediate operational requirements, you need to be clear about the goal:

If the objective is to bring in an aircraft that changes the regional Air Power calculus through capabilities and numbers, I would respectfully say it misses the mark. Too late in the making by the time production begins and the capabilities do not change the landscape regards to what China is fielding now and will be fielding in the very near term. Not needed for Pakistan (all due respect to Pakistan).

If the objective is to bring up Squadron #'s then I would again say the current Rafale deal misses the mark. While not in the same category of capability, the Tejas program can be ramped up for larger scale production through orders/funding. Make due with the Mk1 as a replacement for the Mig-21's and further develop the Mk2. In this case India should along the way, fund domestic programs to replace the foreign components that currently make up a portion of the Tejas, to ultimately bring the full supply chain 'in-house'. Invest in PAK-FA for 5th Gen capabilities. All of this would assist in building the local MIC. If the Tejas program is having problems and is not ready for mass production, produce more MKI's or buy more Mig-29's as a stop gap at a lower cost.

Personally, any way I look at it, the Rafale deal as it is appears to be a financial road-block to local Indian MIC development. As noted above I also don't see it fulfilling two critical objectives for India. And I think if signed, it will limit what we see out of the Tejas program and render the AMCA an ongoing research project. Budgets are not unlimited. But time will tell.

Anyhow that's my analysis and I'll leave it at that. I don't want to harp on the same subject or come across as knocking India.
Cheers
 
A

aksha

Captain
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thunderchief

thunderchief

Senior Member
HMS Astute said:
Cost is back down to $12 billion for 126 birds. $95 million per unit including AESA, ToT etc
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Lowest price mentioned is $15 billion and it comes from most enthusiastic supporters of Rafale like this :

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Other , not so inclined towards Rafale mention $30 billion. Anyway, price would definitely not go below $100 million per plane .

A Bar Brother said:
Actually we do know. RBE-2AA is part of the package to the IAF. There are 6 Rafales meant for an export customer already under production, and will apparently be ready by mid 2016 for delivery. No points to guess which country they are talking about.
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These are probably for Qatar - 24 airplanes for 2.5 billion euros i.e. somewhat around $3.09 billion , without ToT . Something like $128 million per plane.
 
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A

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
Zool said:
Yes but the Liability concerning quality assurance and on-time delivery connects back to the requested TOT.
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Everything comes back to ToT. The liability isn't meant to deal with ToT, it is only meant to take care of quality and timely delivery. Without ToT, nothing can be done anyway.

As to the need for Rafale to fulfill immediate operational requirements, you need to be clear about the goal:

If the objective is to bring in an aircraft that changes the regional Air Power calculus through capabilities and numbers, I would respectfully say it misses the mark. Too late in the making by the time production begins and the capabilities do not change the landscape regards to what China is fielding now and will be fielding in the very near term. Not needed for Pakistan (all due respect to Pakistan).

If the objective is to bring up Squadron #'s then I would again say the current Rafale deal misses the mark. While not in the same category of capability, the Tejas program can be ramped up for larger scale production through orders/funding. Make due with the Mk1 as a replacement for the Mig-21's and further develop the Mk2. In this case India should along the way, fund domestic programs to replace the foreign components that currently make up a portion of the Tejas, to ultimately bring the full supply chain 'in-house'. Invest in PAK-FA for 5th Gen capabilities. All of this would assist in building the local MIC. If the Tejas program is having problems and is not ready for mass production, produce more MKI's or buy more Mig-29's as a stop gap at a lower cost.

Personally, any way I look at it, the Rafale deal as it is appears to be a financial road-block to local Indian MIC development. As noted above I also don't see it fulfilling two critical objectives for India. And I think if signed, it will limit what we see out of the Tejas program and render the AMCA an ongoing research project. Budgets are not unlimited. But time will tell.
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The purpose of Rafale isn't just a numbers filler role, but also to establish a second supply line. One is Russia with the MKI and the other is France with the Rafale. LCA is nowhere in the picture even though others like to bring it in.

In case of massive losses during war, the air fleet can be replenished really quickly. The French have a line for 11 Rafales today with an option to expand up to 30 a year. This is apart from the 20 a year that India plans to churn out. The Russians are already manufacturing 30 Su-30SMs a year, apart from the 15 made in India. That's roughly 100 aircraft a year, the fleet replenished in less than 5 years.

LCA will have a 16/year line in India, and it is completely independent of MKI/FGFA or Rafale. LCA is not ready either, so the IAF cannot yet bank on it. The Mk2 version is yet to fly. AMCA is also not affected by it since the timelines are completely different.

MKI production ends in 2019. FGFA production begins at the time.

Rafale production ends in 2025, could be pushed to 2030 with more orders. AMCA is set to begin well after 2025, maybe even 2030. That's around the time LCA production ends. None of these programs really affect each other.

So in effect, there are only three production lines operational at any time. Two assembly lines in Bangalore and one in Nasik. And one of them is just LCA, which is a rather cheap aircraft to produce and maintain.
 
A

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
Skywatcher said:
Well, it's not like they would admit to anything else.

Iran can claim it cloned the RQ-170, but that doesn't make it true.
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The quality of the MiC and the economy backing it is more important. Dassault delivers, and the world knows it. Iran does not deliver anything and the world knows nothing about what they do deliver. Incomparable.

Rafale has certain qualities that are more advanced than the F-35, namely the Spectra suite. The F-35 doesn't have an equivalent. As for practically everything else that's present on the F-35, there is an equal system available on the Rafale. Radar, MAWS, LWS, IRST, you name it.
 
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