Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

[Zool]

My understanding is the Liability issue is directly related to the TOT portion of the deal. Specifically India's ability to absorb component technologies such that it can manufacture in-country with local materials and assemble reliably on local production lines, in a timely manner. Asking Dassault to accept Liability of all those variables, in particular without any management control of the process, is just not going to happen. If the deal does close, I promise you Dassault with not be on the line with the above.

As for the Rafale itself it is a fine 4th Gen fighter. It would bring to India a number of advances over the MKI's most importantly in the electronic warfare area. But with India's economy today and the value of the deal, today, I don't think it makes the most of the Indian Defence budget.

If it were me I would cancel the MMRCA and invest a small portion of those dollars to move forward the PAK-FA program (which brings true 5th Gen capabilities to India without political restrictions) and put the balance into Tejas Mk1/Mk2 and continued R&D of the AMCA program (proper investment into local MIC while filling Squadron #'s with the Tejas units). IMHO within current time frames, Rafale is not needed versus Pakistan and will not impact the balance of power versus China. There isn't enough money for everything - just look at last years Indian MOD budget shortfalls.

 

[Brumby]

It is not necessary that the liability clauses should be the exact same as the one with Sukhoi, that doesn't make sense. The Sukhoi contract was much larger and over a longer period and doesn't include as much workshare as the Rafale deal.

No one is suggesting that the liability clauses should be the same other then you suggesting that the nature of the deal is pointing to that conclusion. I am not talking about comparable magnitude but the essence of how liability will arise, be attributed and finally determined. Such conditions are predicated upon the nature of the co-operation and what I understand is under negotiations.

The specifics can be up for negotiation, but the entire concept of liability will exist and is binding. As to what can be excluded or included depends on how much HAL has learned over the last 15 years manufacturing the MKI. Basically, HAL will want to throw in as many parameters as they possibly can into the mix while Dassault will want to throw out as many as they can. And MoDs of both sides will have to step in push the deal further, as is happening now.

I thought you were against liability from the start.

I was never against liability but liability without responsibility. If Dassault breaks it then they need to fix it. However if HAL breaks it then the question is to what extend is Dassault responsible for HAL's performance. This I believe is what is being negotiated.

 

[thunderchief]

Rafale won the bid with a cost of $85.5 Million as unit price.

Anyway, Rafale's avionics are at the same level as the F-35. There is no way IAF isn't interested in the bird. It is capable of nuclear strike too.

Rafale would certainly cost much more then $85.5 million per plane (although even that is not cheap) . Price mentioned in media is $20 billion for 126 units , i.e. something like $158 million per plane . You could get 3 or 4 Tejas for same amount of money .

As for avionics being at the same level as on F-35 ... well everybody knows I'm not a fan of F-35 , but realistically - no way . We don't even know would India get AESA or PESA radar with their Rafales, not to mention other things .

 

[HMS Astute]

Cost is back down to $12 billion for 126 birds. $95 million per unit including AESA, ToT etc

 

[aksha]

Work on second n-uclear sub reactor begins

As the first indigenous nuclear submarine Arihant is getting ready for sea voyage, work has begun inside a closely guarded naval dockyard in Visakhapatnam for the “assembly” of another nuclear reactor to propel the second N-powered submarine.
“The assembling of the second reactor began a few months ago at Visakhapatnam and materials are being collected to make the third one,” sources familiar with the project told Deccan Herald. India plans to make three N-powered submarines with second strike capability in a secret project.
The pressure vessel for the second nuclear submarine is being manufactured by the Heavy Engineering Corporation Ltd, Ranchi. There is, however, no official word on the second N-submarine.
Arihant is ready for sea trial as it has received approval from Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) Safety Council. Since strategic projects are outside the purview of the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board, it is the BARC Safety Council that gives regulatory approvals.
“Arihant’s 85 MW light water reactor that runs on enriched Uranium fuel is ready. The reactor has so far operated only 30-40 per cent of its capacity because it is at shore. It will function on full power when it goes to the high seas. The Navy is now making preparations for the sea trial, which involves making other arrangements,” sources said.
In April, when Navy chief Admiral R K Dhowan visited the Eastern Naval Command at Visakhapatnam he said Arihant was in the final phase of its harbour trials and would shortly be put to sea. Since then eight months have passed without a word on the Arihant from the Navy.
The indigenous SSBN was released to water in July, 2009 in the presence of then prime minister Manmohan Singh. It underwent extensive harbour acceptance trials and the 104 mt long and 6,000 tonnes nuclear reactor became critical in August 2013.
The boat is to be fitted with B05 (K-15) submarine launched ballistic missile, which was tested successfully from an under-water pontoon off Visakhapatnam in January 2013, showcasing the missile’s ability to break waters.
Meanwhile, nuclear scientists have readied the second core of Arihant that attained criticality – commencement of the nuclear chain reaction signifying energy production – on October 11, 2013 at a facility known as P4 inside BARC.
The new core could be used in Arihant after 7-8 years of service or may be used in the second submarine, if the reactor has the same capacity, sources said, without disclosing the power output of the second reactor, which is being assembled.

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[aksha]

the navy cheif says

the P75 Scorpenes, to see that there will be no further delays in their induction schedule. The first submarine will roll out in September 2016 and our intention is to speed up induction of the remaining five in a reasonable period of time. Apart from that, we have INS Chakra on lease, a very potent platform. INS Arihant is being made ready for sea trials. It will go out shortly and we are making all efforts to see that its first sea sortie takes place on completion of harbour trials.

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aargh !another delay in the scorpene programme,first induction from late 2015 to september 2016

 

[aksha]

Rafale issue will be resolved in fast-tracked manner: Manohar Parrikar

NEW DELHI: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian tonight raised the issue of the multi-billion dollar deal for 126 Rafale combat aircraft during talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar who said it would be "resolved in a fast-tracked manner".

India had in 2012 selected Rafale aircraft in a deal estimated to be over Rs 60,000 crore but negotiations are still continuing between the Defence Ministry and the French firm Dassault Aviation.

"The talks were held in a cordial atmosphere. All issues relating to India-French defence cooperation were discussed," an official source told PTI.

Asked if the Rafale deal was discussed during the talks at Kota House here, sources said that there are issues on which differences still exist between the two sides.

Parrikar told his French counterpart that "this would be resolved in a fast-tracked manner", they said.

The final negotiations for the deal have been stuck on a number of issues including pricing and work-sharing.

As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

According to the sources, Dassault was reluctant to stand guarantee for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production are concerned.

This, the sources said, is the critical issue that is delaying the final inking.

The Defence Ministry is of the view that the guarantee clause was part of the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) under the RFP that was issued.

Dassault had agreed to the ASQR and hence was chosen the winner, the sources maintained.

"How can the ASQR be relaxed? This is not allowed under the Defence Procurement Procedure, 2013," a source said.

This is the second time that France has raised the issue of Rafale with the NDA government since May.

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius had met External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj and then Defence Minister Arun Jaitley in June and had pushed for early purchase of Rafale combat jet planes.

Fabius had said France hopes that with the new government, which was keen on efficiency, the implementation of the decision will be swift and had expressed confidence of a "positive outcome" to the ongoing negotiations in the deal.

Asserting that there was a difference in "some time" and "too long", Fabius had said that Rafale meets all the requirements of India, including cutting-edge technology and highest quality.

Rafale, which would replace India's Russian-made fleet of MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes, had stood over combat aircraft manufactured by rivals like Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

At present, India has 34 fighter jet squadrons (16-18 planes in each) against the projected need of 45 squadrons.

The French Defence Minister presented Parrikar with two photographs of Indian soldiers in World War 1.

Both the leaders also agreed that Indo-French Strategic Partnership of 1998 will be taken forward.

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[A Bar Brother]

First off, F-35 is a stealth aircraft which is a generation ahead of Rafail. And, they are differently designed to do different tasks.

Only in terms of airframe and engine. The avionics are very similar.

 

[A Bar Brother]

I see three reasons why the Rafale deal makes sense to India :

(i) The Rafale is a capable aircraft against India's immediate security concern (I am not talking about Pakistan)
(ii)There is a timing window issue for India to replace existing obsolete fleet and prior to the PAKFA coming on board (India needs to hedge slippage of this program and in all likelihood will happen)
(iii)The F 35 is not India's immediate concern and I think the French will disagree that the Rafale cannot compete against the F-35 in air dominance.

You hit the nail on the head.

About point iii, the French believe Rafale matches the F-35 in more than just air dominance.

 

[A Bar Brother]

My understanding is the Liability issue is directly related to the TOT portion of the deal.

The liability is to do with quality production and timely delivery.

If it were me I would cancel the MMRCA

This is impossible from an operational PoV. IAF needs the jets as of last decade.

I was never against liability but liability without responsibility. If Dassault breaks it then they need to fix it. However if HAL breaks it then the question is to what extend is Dassault responsible for HAL's performance. This I believe is what is being negotiated.

Yes, the former goes without question. As for the latter, in the Su-30 deal, apparently, Sukhoi is liable for HAL's quality. But this was always going to be a sticking point between HAL and Dassault and was well known.

We don't even know would India get AESA or PESA radar with their Rafales, not to mention other things .

Actually we do know. RBE-2AA is part of the package to the IAF. There are 6 Rafales meant for an export customer already under production, and will apparently be ready by mid 2016 for delivery. No points to guess which country they are talking about.