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A Bar Brother

Junior Member
that (officially) only 5 crashed

IAF has never covered up accidents. All the crashes you see are all the aircraft that have crashed in total.

I read that the level of local integration is pretty significant, like 60-70%.
I am just trying to understand the rationale behind Dassault Aviation's reluctance with regards so-called liability Ts & Cs.
India is often perceived as a very demanding customer and I see it (lived it) in other domains than just military.

The rational behind procuring the Rafale is for the low end of the force structure, with the Su-30 at the high end.

The requirement for 126 aircraft was first mooted in 1999. They wanted Mirage-2000. The govt said they will hold a tender, to which the IAF agreed and the tender was launched in 2004. Then the govt decided to include Rafale and Super Hornet too and a new tender was launched in 2007.

MMRCA was always a requirement independent to the Su-30. In the future, IAF will procure the FGFA as the high end and the AMCA as the low end.

Further i am assuming the Rafale contract is about the F3R and any future upgrades, correct?

Would be great if you or anyone else had an insight on the above. Thanks in advance.

The Rafale bid was made with the F3+ as the base model. However there are sufficient clauses that allow the induction of the most advanced Rafale that's available at the time. New equipment can be added to the mix as well. Apparently, 60 new technologies have been added since contract negotiations began. And even stuff that's beyond F3R will be included, the same as it was for the Su-30MKI with the Mk1, 2, and 3 models.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
1)the problem is that Dassault worked with HAL on the Tejas ,and i think that they feel HAL is not competent enough,
India's private industries on the other hand have a good reputation,( tata aerospace already makes parts for Sirkosky and Boeing.)
2)Dassault also has to give a guarantee for the planes made in india
HAL says it won't allow French observers during manufacturing of the Rafales.
the private industry on the other hand short of experience and without the arrogance of HAL will allow observers.
having observers will allow Dassault to control the quality of the products .
(actually IAF wanted to penalize HAL if they deliver products late,HAL pushed it on Dassault,and this lead to further delaying the deal ,though the IAF supports Dassault here).
3)Dassault has asked HAL to show them a required minimum of inrastructure ,but HAL hasn't done so.

these are just some of the problems delaying the deal.

HAL has no issue with observers.

Those i got, but it leads me back to the MKI contract. If known, were there such demands by HAL?
I noted in the article you posted that Dassault was curious about the same
Dassault has asked HAL to clarify the specifics of any similar liability parameters in comparable deals like HAL's Su-30 MKI production line on license from Russia [end quote].

Yes, the Sukhoi deal has liability and Sukhoi has agreed to it. Sukhoi deputes their own people to oversee quality. One of the most stringent quality check is done for the RAM coating.

We don't know the exact details about the liabilities of course. All we know is Sukhoi is responsible for the quality of the jets that HAL manufactures.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
The issues as described is much more than just mere competency. Essentially, the expectation is that Dassault will assume the contingent liabilities without the oversight and responsibility over production and quality management. No prudently managed commercial organisation will ever sign off on such terms. They are effectively deal stoppers.

HAL jumped from manufacturing Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguars to a much more comprehensive and detailed manufacturing of the MKI, including the engine. The jump from MKI to Rafale is going to be much easier, especially when HAL has already set up a production line for the LCA. LCA follows very similar quality requirements as Rafale or Typhoon.

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By measuring with the laser, it is ensured that the locator is within 80 microns, i.e. about one-tenth of a millimetre, of where it should be. These are international standards, used by companies like Boeing.

Typhoon related forum to which I cannot post a link to...
The levels of production accuracy required are astounding, panels and fittings have tolerances equal to 70 microns.

Dassault's excuse that HAL can't manufacture a jet like Rafale is only a negotiation tactic in order to keep some of the work away from them. But HAL has already achieved production quality to as high a level as required for Rafale by themselves.

Dassault wants a company with no experience in the aerospace sector to be the lead integrator, Reliance Industries. The reason is as simple as Reliance won't be able to deliver, and Dassault will end up manufacturing most of the jet in order to meet the deadline. This way they keep most of the business with themselves while HAL won't be able to learn anything that they can use in future programs like FGFA, AMCA, AURA etc.

Heck, the next time Boeing wants to built a jet they should outsource the production to Walmart. At least that's Dassault's logic.

Point being, HAL is the only company in India capable of even assembling jets, let alone manufacture from the ground up.
 

Brumby

Major
HAL jumped from manufacturing Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguars to a much more comprehensive and detailed manufacturing of the MKI, including the engine. The jump from MKI to Rafale is going to be much easier, especially when HAL has already set up a production line for the LCA. LCA follows very similar quality requirements as Rafale or Typhoon.

It doesn't matter whether Rafale choose McDonald or Pizza Hut instead of HAL. If Rafale is to be held accountable for delays or defects, then they must have some sort of oversight (at minimum) or preferably joint management control over the manufacturing process. As I understand the terms as posted, Rafale don't even get a look in. Essentially, IAF's approach is "they break it you pay it" instead of the norm "you break it you pay it".

I am saying no organisation in their right mind will accede to such terms unless they are insane.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
It doesn't matter whether Rafale choose McDonald or Pizza Hut instead of HAL. If Rafale is to be held accountable for delays or defects, then they must have some sort of oversight (at minimum) or preferably joint management control over the manufacturing process. As I understand the terms as posted, Rafale don't even get a look in. Essentially, IAF's approach is "they break it you pay it" instead of the norm "you break it you pay it".

I am saying no organisation in their right mind will accede to such terms unless they are insane.

Sukhoi did. The Russians always do. Dassault can too. There isn't really a joint management type system, but the system has a lot of flexibility for Sukhoi to interfere in the MKI program AFAIK. BaE agreed to the same clauses for the Hawk.

And Dassault gets to look in, no problems there. The people from Sukhoi are involved in every single step of the manufacturing process of the MKI, right from the delivery of the raw materials, to the factory testing and delivery to the customer. They manage quality. There is no doubt Dassault will be involved in the same way.

Basically, we don't want a situation where we have to fix problems that Dassault is supposed to fix. That makes the liability clause very important.
 

Brumby

Major
Sukhoi did. The Russians always do. Dassault can too. There isn't really a joint management type system, but the system has a lot of flexibility for Sukhoi to interfere in the MKI program AFAIK. BaE agreed to the same clauses for the Hawk.

And Dassault gets to look in, no problems there. The people from Sukhoi are involved in every single step of the manufacturing process of the MKI, right from the delivery of the raw materials, to the factory testing and delivery to the customer. They manage quality. There is no doubt Dassault will be involved in the same way.

Basically, we don't want a situation where we have to fix problems that Dassault is supposed to fix. That makes the liability clause very important.

The structure of the arrangement that you have posted is polar opposite from those posted earlier by another poster. We are effectively talking from two different end of a stick. It seems that you are assuming that the same terms that were negotiated with the Russians will apply to the French. That is a big assumption to make. Do you actually have a basis for it? Contractual liabilities and responsibilities are a function of the contractual terms and not a function of historical precedence.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
I

The rational behind procuring the Rafale is for the low end of the force structure, with the Su-30 at the high end.

The requirement for 126 aircraft was first mooted in 1999. They wanted Mirage-2000. The govt said they will hold a tender, to which the IAF agreed and the tender was launched in 2004. Then the govt decided to include Rafale and Super Hornet too and a new tender was launched in 2007.

MMRCA was always a requirement independent to the Su-30. In the future, IAF will procure the FGFA as the high end and the AMCA as the low end.

That is why Rafale deal is a bit ludicrous at this point . MMRCA supposed to be competition to replace aging Mig-21s (and Mig-27 and Mig-23 at that time) with something reasonable priced until Tejas is ready . Instead, they got low-end plane that is more expensive then high-end plane , and would probably cost more then 5th gen plane (FGFA) :D

Right thing for India in this moment would be to finally stand on on its own two feet and start replacing older Migs with Tejas. Tejas is not fully certified but it could launch R-73 and that is good enough to replace Mig-21 Bis still in Indian service (I'm not talking about Bisons , they could serve few more years) . There is no immediate threat to India, so they could afford to develop their own industry instead of squandering money on unnecessary purchases .
 

aksha

Captain
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The structure of the arrangement that you have posted is polar opposite from those posted earlier by another poster. We are effectively talking from two different end of a stick. It seems that you are assuming that the same terms that were negotiated with the Russians will apply to the French. That is a big assumption to make. Do you actually have a basis for it? Contractual liabilities and responsibilities are a function of the contractual terms and not a function of historical precedence.

the thing is IAF no longer wants HAL to monopolise for itself the building of its fighter jets.
the avro replacement deal will most probably go to TATA.
the navy's NMRH helicopter licence building will go to TATA as well,especially since the already manufacture parts for sirkosky.
the IAF asked the MOD to bring in aprivate enterprise to make tejas mk2
@BAR BROTHER ,yes HAL indeed is the only company in India that at present can manufacture planes AT PRESENT.
but doesn't mean no body else should try it or that anybody else should be allowed , considering that even now HAL
cant make the reqd.no of MKI's per year.even the first sereis prodution tejas mk1 was supposed to fly long before but it flew only about a few months back.
LCH Td3 again was supposed to fly a long way back but flew only last month.tells you to never believe HAL.
HeXYgxB.jpg


there are many who believe beleive that tejas would have entered service earlier if HAL had a competitor,
now IAF is fiercely trying to create them.but at at the same time HAL and other PSU's are trying to nip them from the buds.

this work is usually done by HAL
Taneja Aerospace signs contract to upgrade MiG-29s
Nagpur: Pune-based Taneja Aerospace and Aviation Limited (TAAL) has bagged the contract for life cycle upgradation of MiG-29 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF). TAAL competed with much bigger players like Tatas, L&T and Punj Lloyd among total eight bidders to get this deal worth over Rs 12 crore.[/B]

The deal signed on Wednesday is being dubbed as the first of its kind, because so far only smaller jobs like manufacture of spares or other allied services were outsourced by the IAF. Never before has a private company been involved in retrofitting of an entire aircraft. Till now, this was the sole domain of defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

TOI had reported in December last year that seven private players had evinced interest in the aircraft upgrade contract. They had responded to the request for information (RFI) floated by IAF for upgrade of MiG-29s and AN-32. The latter is a transport aircraft while the MiG-29 is known to be among the best air defence planes with the IAF.

As compared to other bidders, TAAL is not a known name. Currently it has a turnover of Rs 50 crore, but it also has the credit of being maybe the first Indian company to have entirely built an aircraft. In the 1990s, it had made a hobby aircraft meant to be sold to flying clubs. However, the project did not take off. TAAL is currently a Tier-1 supplier to HAL with its aviation unit located at Hossur near Mysore.

The project is aimed at increasing the life cycle of MiG-29s for a period of another 40 years. IAF will be providing TAAL the spares and components to fitted in the aircraft. The job will be executed at the base repair depot (BRD) at Nashik. The BRDs come under IAF's maintenance command headquartered at Nagpur.

Talking to TOI after the contract was signed, TAAL CEO NC Agrawal said IAF will provide training for the first two aircraft, after which it aims to finish four MiG-29s every three months. IAF has close to 50 MiG-29s in all. The work will be jointly done by IAF and TAAL. Agrawal said, considering the size of the job, the company plans to hire experienced manpower from IAF and HAL.

"The size of the contract may not be much, but TAAL finds that it will help the company go a long way. Even for us, it will be treading a new path with all its risks. However, it will provide an experience in an altogether new field," said Agrawal. He hoped that it will eventually lead to a private player being involved in making of a military aircraft.

A similar move is expected for the AN-32s, with the private vendor expected to be finalized within the next week, said a source in IAF.
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Dassault's concern is that HAL hasn't built up any of the fixed assets which the company feels would be the minimum requirement to begin discussing the modalities of the kind of liability HAL wants Dassault to take on for the jets built in India. With the last 60 aircraft to be as much as 90% 'Made in India',
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Ambitious project of developing LCA is running behind schedule. Def Min Manohar Parrikar informed Rajya Sabha today. [ :) ]
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But the major bone of contention is French aviation major Dassault's continuing reluctance to accept responsibility for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production are concerned.
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France’s Dassault Aviation and Reliance Industries are planning to set up a facility to produce wings of Rafale combat aircraft selected by IAF for meeting its requirement of 126 fighter planes.

The two firms are planning to set up a Rs. 1,000-crore facility for producing the wings of the Rafale combat aircraft and it is most likely to come up in Bangalore, industry sources told PTI here.

Under the plan, Dassault Aviation would help Reliance to establish the factory similar to its production facilities in France where the aircraft is produced, they said.

The Defence Ministry and other agencies concerned have given a go ahead to the two companies for creating the unit, they said.
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Airbus and Tata team up to bid for Indian aircraft deal
(Reuters) - Tata Sons and Europe's Airbus have bid for a multi-billion dollar contract to replace the Indian Air Force's ageing fleet of Avro cargo planes, as New Delhi looks to boost the role of the local private sector in modernising its armed forces.

Under the bid, estimated by analysts to be worth at least $2 billion, Airbus' Defence and Space unit and Tata's Advanced Systems would replace the 56 Avro jets with Airbus' C295 transport planes, the European manufacturer said on Tuesday.

Airbus would supply the first 16 planes in "fly away" condition from its own assembly line, while the subsequent 40 would be manufactured and assembled by Tata Advanced Systems in India.

They would be the first military planes built by an Indian private company on Indian soil, with current manufacturing dominated by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's new government, which has raised the foreign investment limit in defence since coming to power in May, is moving to clear a backlog of military equipment orders and close the gap on strategic rival China.

It has said it will prioritise companies which have pledged to manufacture within India.

Indian companies such as Tata, Larsen & Toubro and Mahindra Group are spending billions of dollars to build arms, as they look to win a chunk of the $250 billion that analysts estimate India will spend on defence kit over the next decade.

The government first issued a tender for a foreign supplier and Indian private firm to replace the Avro jets in May 2012, but a lack of interest from potential bidders and ministerial infighting led to a series of delays.

India is trying to replace much of its outdated fleet of military planes. The biggest contract is a $15 billion deal with France's Dassault Aviation to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets, which is still to be finalised.
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HAL opposes this just like Kochin shipyard opposed giving the LHD deal to private enterprises.

@ bar brother,
you remind me of another person who told me that since only PSU's are the ones that supply equipment to the army,they are the best in the country.but it is wrong.
private industries like MKU ltd.supply equipment to NATO,while our soldiers are using infereior helmets still,the patka helmet provides most protection,but it is too heavy ,uncomfatable,the other helmet produce by OFB is a 1970 tin can ,much inferior to the patka.

ehy don't you ask Terran empire about the quality of INSAS ,he is the resident specialst after all.

TATA aerospace is building a massive plant in Banglore,you can't expect themto sit idle now.


see how HAL accuses TATA now
The presence of Ratan Tata on HAL Board (two terms for 5 years) is likely to throw up a row, if the Tata-Airbus consortium wins the deal. HAL feels that Tata was privy to all important information about the Company's policies, which might have given him an edge while diversifying into aviation.

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aksha

Captain
That is why Rafale deal is a bit ludicrous at this point . MMRCA supposed to be competition to replace aging Mig-21s (and Mig-27 and Mig-23 at that time) with something reasonable priced until Tejas is ready . Instead, they got low-end plane that is more expensive then high-end plane , and would probably cost more then 5th gen plane (FGFA) :D

Right thing for India in this moment would be to finally stand on on its own two feet and start replacing older Migs with Tejas. Tejas is not fully certified but it could launch R-73 and that is good enough to replace Mig-21 Bis still in Indian service (I'm not talking about Bisons , they could serve few more years) . There is no immediate threat to India, so they could afford to develop their own industry instead of squandering money on unnecessary purchases .

one of the main reasons i have not entirely been supporting MMRCA deal.
why start inducting a costly 4.5 gen aircraft the same year fifth gen gen fighters(f 35) start appearing all over the world.
that is
if the deal is signed this MARCH 2015 the first squardon will be formed in 2017.according to official estimates
 

aksha

Captain
The race against time


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Statistics can sometimes be startling. An initial paper that landed on Manohar Parrikar's desk after he took over as defence minister detailed India's military purchases over the last five years. Its summary: despite the UPA government's reluctance to sign defence contracts and the freeze put in place by a battle-scarred A.K. Antony, New Delhi had paid foreign defence vendors more than Rs.1 lakh crore, making India the world's largest weapons importer

Yet, gaping holes remain in the nation's conventional capabilities-from an ageing fighter aircraft force plagued with a high accident rate to a depleted underwater fleet and an army that has not purchased an artillery gun in three decades. The BJP has inherited a weakened defence force, with high import dependence and a complete loss of faith in the ability of government units to meet requirements.

And that is Parrikar's challenge: to modernise the armed forces to tide over the 'lost decade' of the UPA and end its dependence on imports. It is a race against time and success will depend substantially on how he manages to deliver on the Prime Minister's pet Make in India project without compromising the conventional edge of the forces.

By conservative estimates, India is likely to spend more than $260 billion on military purchases over the next 12 years. A report by the defence and aerospace division of Ernst and Young suggests that in case the Government is able push through the Make in India model, at least $50 billion can be saved.

Thus, most big-ticket projects being touted as "cleared" under the new regime are 'make in India'-from nextgeneration submarines and light choppers for the Army to transport planes for the air force, howitzers and amphibious warships. The combined worth of these projects is well above Rs.1 lakh crore. In fact, out of 21 major procurement projects at various stages of processing at present, excluding the multi-billion-dollar fighter aircraft deal that is in the doldrums-at least 18 are mandated to be made in India.

And private production is the way to go, the Government has figured out. "The private industry has to step forward for us to achieve the goal of indigenisation. The public sector has a role but after their being around for several decades, it is clear that our private players need to step in," Minister of State in charge of defence production Rao Inderjit Singh told INDIA TODAY.

While the initial response of the private industry has been enthusiastic, as realities begin to bite there is an increasing realisation that Make in India is a long haul and that the road ahead is long and requires tough decisions.

Take, for instance, one of the first and biggest make-in-India projects for the private sector: the air force's plans to replace its fleet of 56 Avro medium lift transport aircraft. The IAF wanted a private company to tie up with a foreign vendor and set up a production line in India for the Rs.13,000-crore project. However, despite hectic rounds of negotiations and consultations between Indian and foreign companies, only one joint venture came forward- an Airbus-Tata combine.

In his first meeting on defence procurements, Parrikar has deferred a decision on whether to go ahead with this single-vendor situation or re-tender the process. The latter would mean a delay.

The private sector would also have to take on the well-ensconced public sector undertakings (PSUs), which have created infrastructure over the years. To compete fairly on price with a PSU is thus nearly impossible for private companies, which now need to create assets, invest in manpower and acquire technology-all pushing up costs exponentially.

As the private sector gears to manufacture, and even enter the export market, it will also face the twin challenges of liability and certification. The liability for non-performance or malfunction would lie on the Indian company that sells the product to the armed forces, and given the high-value contracts at hand, most companies would find it hard to have the deep pockets required.

The private sector will also find it hard to get certifications for its products- valid international certificates that guarantee quality control are a must for all military contracts. Certification is a lengthy, painstaking process, taking years to register each part that goes into a military system.

Pilatus Aircraft Ltd, which supplies basic trainers to the air force, has been unsuccessfully looking for a partner in India to manufacture 106 aircraft required by the IAF.

Pilatus Aircraft's Deputy CEO Jim Roach said: "There is not a single entity mature enough yet in India that can manufacture the aircraft, certify it and deliver to the air force in the time envisaged. Flight safety starts with certification and there is no commercial company in India that has the full certification toolkit necessary."


While the biggest demand of the private sector is for a level playing field with PSUs in eligibility criteria, taxes and duties, the Department of Defence Production is at present reviewing a set of recommendations by the industry to find solutions. An equal ground with the PSUs would go a long way towards strengthening the confidence of the private sector. The industry has also requested the ministry to go easy on blacklisting of companies even over minor issues.

Amajor push is also being made by the industry to spur the Government into reviving the make-in-India plan in which the Government will finance 80 per cent of the development cost of a new project-like the next-generation infantry combat vehicle- based on paper plans presented by established industry players with the mandatory 10 years of experience in defence manufacturing. Parrikar will, however, have to sort out the tussle between established players such as Tata and Larsen & Toubro and new entrants such as Reliance Aerospace, which have been lobbying to reduce the experience criterion down to five years to get a toe in.

Though the armed forces endorse the indigenisation plan, there is apprehension that a blind make-in-India policy for every purchase may be suicidal for modernisation, which is struggling after the lost decade under the UPA.

The Indian Navy, with its proven record on self-reliance, also warns that indigenous manufacturing is a multilayered project that requires patience and time. "The Navy had a vision and it started 50 years ago. Now the entire chain is in place," Navy chief Admiral R.K. Dhowan told INDIA TODAY. "Manufacturers will need to understand it is a long-term game and they have to be ready to suffer losses. They also need to be ready to not only manufacture but maintain the product through its service life. It is a tough challenge."

But the consequences can be dire for the armed forces if the Make in India bubble bursts. Already facing fresh tension with Pakistan and an increasingly assertive China, the luxury of time is not at hand to rebuild a credible conventional deterrent. The question is how Parrikar will strike a balance.



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