Crisis in the Ukraine

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SampanViking

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The article claims "mounting evidence", but fails to produce any. It also doesn't mention if the Buk, under autonomous mode, has anywhere near the range of a fully operational system. The analysis is obviously written to reinforce the unfounded premise.

Exactly the point again. In fact it seems as though the argument in the Western media, is that the "The BUK can shoot, the BUK is Russian so obviously only the Russians can be guilty" Its the logic of the kindergarten.

Proof is very straight forward in its definition. It is a particular launcher, operating in a particular location, proved by the radar tracks and radiation recordings of the fire and intercept. Once achieved an identity of the person responsible for the order to shoot should not be too difficult.

Anything less than this is not proof, by any definition, period! and no amount of wishful thinking will make it any less not evidence.
Certain countries who have made loud claims of culpability have had a week to put there telemetry and other hard evidence into the public arena. This is more than a reasonable period of time to collate and present the data (Russia after all were able to do it in four days) and the failure to do so, indicates nothing less than bare faced lies by those making the claims.

Whilst we wait further, here is video of Militia Artillery, actively targeting Ukrainian armour in the Southern Cauldron.

[video=youtube_share;43wais6YAiE]http://youtu.be/43wais6YAiE[/video]
 
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SampanViking

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Just picked this up
It look like the aftermath of the attack in the first video - nothing graphic
This time we are told that it is the Ukrainian 72nd Mechanised Brigade on the receiving end

[video=youtube_share;7XM7yV18kto]http://youtu.be/7XM7yV18kto[/video]

Some pictures from the scene

mwv69i.jpg

20rl82o.jpg

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t67civ.jpg
 
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plawolf

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That's some pretty impressive artillery battery fire. It would have taken a lot of well trained, supplied and coordinated men to pull off such an attack.

Something bugs me a little though - why didn't anyone try to get out of the kill zone? Its an armoured unit with lots of tanks and IFVs, if I was caught on the receiving end of an artillery barrage, the first thing I'd do is try to get into an armoured vehicle and drive as fast away as possible.

Yet we see no real activity at all with vehicles seeming to just sit there waiting to get shelled.
 

SampanViking

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That's some pretty impressive artillery battery fire. It would have taken a lot of well trained, supplied and coordinated men to pull off such an attack.

Something bugs me a little though - why didn't anyone try to get out of the kill zone? Its an armoured unit with lots of tanks and IFVs, if I was caught on the receiving end of an artillery barrage, the first thing I'd do is try to get into an armoured vehicle and drive as fast away as possible.

Yet we see no real activity at all with vehicles seeming to just sit there waiting to get shelled.

I suspect the answer is a mix of low morale plus shortages of fuel and ammo. The crews just bug out and hide in the shelters because they know they are sitting ducks in the tin cans.
Its a bit like that Iraqi column that was captured almost intact by ISIS a few weeks ago.
I guess after the firing, the boys come out of the holes and drive off anything that can still move to the next defensive position.
 

Janiz

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Precisely the point. The Russian side have presented real evidence in the form of Empirical Data from their Military Surveillance systems. Nobody else has done so, despite a number of nations making very strong claims but totally failing to back them up with anything.
Send me that 01 evidence right now as I'm probably not watching RT at the moment...
 

SampanViking

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Send me that 01 evidence right now as I'm probably not watching RT at the moment...

If you want to read the statement and view the evidence presented by the Russian Defence Minister at the beginning of this week, they are all in, or accessible via links, in this thread, if you can bothered to look for it.

If however you really would like a holiday from SDF just keep up the pointless/borderline trolling one liners and I will be happy to oblige.

We can stick with Poland for a while though as it has made the news three times this week.
1) To agree to provide a forward logistical base for NATO, specifically targeting the Russian Federation.
2) Being fined by the European Court of Human Rights for illegal extraordinary rendition of terror suspects on behalf of the USA
3) Your Foreign Minister appearing on UK television and telling a massive porky, claiming that Russia was redrawing the map and changing the borders of countries in Europe, for the first time in seventy years. This distinction of course goes to NATO countries for breaking up Yugoslavia and annexing Kosovo from Serbia less then twenty years ago.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

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[video=youtube_share;dfotnnYpzes]http://youtu.be/dfotnnYpzes[/video]
Russia criticizes EU sanctions, raps U.S. over Ukraine role
Photo
8:23am EDT
By Vladimir Soldatkin
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia reacted angrily on Saturday to additional sanctions imposed by the European Union over Moscow's role in the Ukraine crisis, saying they would hamper cooperation on security issues and undermine the fight against terrorism and organized crime.
Russia's Foreign Ministry also accused the United States, which has already imposed its own sanctions against Moscow, of contributing to the conflict in Ukraine through its support for the pro-Western government in Kiev.
The 28-nation EU reached an outline agreement on Friday to impose the first economic sanctions on Russia over its behavior in Ukraine but scaled back their scope to exclude technology for the crucial gas sector. The EU also imposed travel bans and asset freezes on the chiefs of Russia's FSB security service and foreign intelligence service and a number of other top Russian officials, saying they had helped shape Russian government policy that threatened Ukraine's sovereignty and national integrity.
"The additional sanction list is direct evidence that the EU countries have set a course for fully scaling down cooperation with Russia over the issues of international and regional security," Russia's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
"(This) includes the fight against the proliferation of weapon of mass destruction, terrorism, organized crime and other new challenges and dangers."
"We are sure such decisions will be accepted with enthusiasm by global terrorists," the ministry added.
"SEVERE CONSEQUENCES"
The EU had already imposed asset freezes and travel bans on dozens of senior Russian officials over Russia's annexation in March of Ukraine's Black Sea peninsula of Crimea and its support for separatists battling Kiev's forces in eastern Ukraine.
The decision to move toward targeting sectors of Russia's economy came after last week's downing of a Malaysian MH17 airliner, killing 298 people, in an area of eastern Ukraine held by the Russian-backed separatists.
The United States and other Western countries accuse the separatists of downing the plane with a surface-to-air missile supplied by Russia. The separatists deny shooting down the plane and Russia says it has provided no such weapons.
In a second statement on Saturday, Russia's Foreign Ministry said Washington shared responsibility for the crisis.
"The United States continues to push Kiev into the forceful repression of (Ukraine's) Russian-speaking population's discontent. There is one conclusion - the Obama administration has some responsibility both for the internal conflict in Ukraine and its severe consequences," it said.
It was responding to the White House's accusation that Russian President Vladimir Putin was "culpable" in the downing of the Malaysian plane.
Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier of Germany, Europe's largest economy which also has strong trade ties with Russia, spoke out strongly in favor of the new EU sanctions against Moscow in an interview published on Saturday.
"After the death of 300 innocent people in the MH17 crash and the disrespectful roaming around the crash site of marauding soldiers, the behavior of Russia leaves us no other choice." he told Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper.
"We remain true to our course: cleverly calibrated and mutually agreed measures to raise the pressure and toward a willingness to have serious talks with Russia," he said in the interview, conducted on Friday.
In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said he would hold talks in the Netherlands next Wednesday with his Dutch counterpart Mark Rutte on how to secure full access for international investigators to the site of the plane crash.
"This will require the cooperation of those in control of the crash site and the Ukrainian armed forces," he said.
The separatists remain in control of the area where the plane came down. A total of 193 Dutch nationals and 43 Malaysians were among the victims aboard MH-17.
(Editing by Gareth Jones)
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US Defense Department Warns of Arms to Eastern Ukraine
by VOA News
The top U.S. military officer says he thinks Russia is a reluctant participant in Ukraine's conflict.
General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, says he believes the Russian military and its leaders are "probably somewhat reluctant participants" in the form of warfare being used in Ukraine.
Dempsey's comments come as the U.S. has accused Russia of an imminent transfer of Russian arms to Ukrainian separatists. The U.S. has also accused Russia of continuing to fire artillery across the border into Ukraine, but the U.S. says it has seen no indications that Ukraine has fired into Russia.
General Dempsey, speaking at a security forum in the western U.S. state of Colorado, said he is concerned that the "rising tide of nationalism" that has been ignited in Russia may slip into other parts of Europe.
"My fear is actually, you know if I have a fear about this it's that Putin may actually light a fire that he loses control of," said Dempsey. "In other words, you know I; these ethnic enclaves, there's a rising tide of nationalism and nationalism can be a very dangerous instinct and impulse. There's a rising tide of nationalism in Europe right now that has been created by, in many ways, by these Russian activities that I find to be quite dangerous."
Pentagon weapons concerns
U.S. Defense Department spokesman Steve Warren said Friday officials believe the transfer of Russian arms into Ukraine will involve "heavier caliber, more capable" artillery systems than those used previously. The U.S. for weeks has said Russia is supplying the separatists with arms and equipment.
Warren said the U.S. has seen the systems moving closer to the border of Ukraine, but the Pentagon does not have an exact timeline when they will be delivered.
Warren also said the systems being moved are surface-to-surface systems, not surface-to-air systems like the one suspected in last week's downing of a Malaysia Airlines jet in which nearly 300 people died, "They're not precision munitions, Warren added, "and unquestionably there is an increased risk of civilian casualties.”
Designed to destroy buildings, roads and military positions, the launchers could be a "game changer" in Ukraine, according to another Pentagon official who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Warren said the advent of the Russian artillery, and potential volleys into Ukraine, pose “a great concern."
“We believe that they are able to transfer this equipment at any time,” Warren said of the Russians, noting the United States continues “to work closely with the Ukrainians” on several levels, including by supplying nonlethal aid.
Warren said these new developments are of "great concern," as they signal a likely increase in the risk of civilian casualties in eastern Ukraine.
EU adds sanctions
European Union ambassadors met on Friday in Brussels where they voted to extend Ukraine-related sanctions, targeting top Russian intelligence officials and leaders of the pro-Russia revolt in eastern Ukraine. Among the 15 new people sanctioned was the head of Russia's Federal Security Service. Eighteen companies were also added to the sanctions list.
Russia's Foreign Ministry lashed out at the new sanctions Saturday, saying in a statement they will undermine the fight against terrorism by limiting cooperation from Moscow.
On Thursday, U.S. President Barack Obama spoke to Prime Minister Mark Rutte of the Netherlands. White House officials said the leaders agreed in the evening conversation that more sanctions need to be imposed on Russia.
Dutch, Australian and Ukrainian foreign ministers met in Kyiv Thursday to discuss the recovery process. They demanded that an international team under the authority of the United Nations secure the crash site so the rest of the remains can be collected and the investigation proceed without interference from separatists.
The U.S. has sent investigators from at least two federal agencies – the Federal Bureau of Investigation and National Transportation and Safety Board – to assist with the crash investigation.
Australia beefs up security team
Australia is close to finalizing a plan to send 100 additional police and some defense force personnel to Europe to join a planned Dutch-led international security force to secure the crash site, Prime Minister Tony Abbott said Friday.
Armed pro-Russian separatists control the area and have hampered investigators' attempts to access.
The Australian Federal Police (AFP) officers, some of whom will be armed, will join a contingent of 90 AFP officers already in London waiting for a deal with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to be approved by the country's parliament.
Abbott stressed that the team, which would include countries that lost citizens in the disaster, would not be going in as part of a military mission.
“This is a humanitarian mission, with a clear and simple objective,” Abbott told reporters. “I expect the operation on the ground in Ukraine, should the deployment go ahead, to last no longer than a few weeks.”
Search and recovery
The international police team would be tasked with ensuring a thorough search of the site so all remains are recovered and sent to the Netherlands for identification. The mission would be complete within a few weeks of arriving, Abbott told the Associated Press.
Abbott announced on Thursday that 50 police officers had been deployed to London ahead of the mission, but a police spokeswoman said on Friday that the number was 90. It was unclear why the discrepancy had occurred.
On Tuesday, Abbott said that Russian-backed rebels were tampering with evidence on “an industrial scale” and argued that outside police or possibly military forces were needed to ensure that did not continue.
The Boeing 777 was shot down last week in eastern Ukraine en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, killing all 298 passengers and crew on board. Twenty eight Australians were killed.
The urgency to secure the area grew after three Australian officials traveled to the crash site on Thursday and found more wreckage and human remains, Abbott said.
"With these remains exposed to the ravages of heat and animals and to the continuing possibility of human interference, it's more important than ever that the site be properly secured," Abbott told AP. "Our objective is the remains can be recovered, that the investigation can go ahead and that justice can be done."
Ukrainian offensive
Elsewhere, the French news agency AFP reported Ukrainian troops have retaken the strategically important city of Lysychansk in eastern Ukraine, as they press on with their offensive to stamp out a pro-Russian rebellion, Poroshenko said.
"Ukrainian forces have raised the flag over the town council in Lysychansk," the presidency said in a statement late Thursday.
Lysychansk - a city of around 105,000 some 90 kilometers northwest of the rebel stronghold of Luhansk - was seized by separatists in early April at the start of a bloody insurgency that has now claimed the lives of some 1,000 people, including the nearly 300 on board downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, AFP reported.
VOA's Jeff Seldin contributed to this report from the Pentagon. Additional information was provided by Reuters and the Associated Press.

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More than 30 Ukrainian Military Casualties to be Transported through Russia
Topic: Situation in the South-East of Ukraine
More than 30 Ukrainian Military Casualties to be Transported through Russia
More than 30 Ukrainian Military Casualties to be Transported through Russia
© REUTERS/ Alexander Mikhailov
12:45 26/07/2014
Tags: civilian deaths, independence, military operation, military action, Soldiers, wounded, Russia’s Foreign Ministry, Russia’s Border Guard Service, Vasily Malayev, Kiev, Russia, Ukraine
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Ukraine's Mortar Attack on Luhansk Kills 15 Civilians, Injures 60 Friday - Militia
ROSTOV-ON-DON, July 26 (RIA Novosti) - More than 30 killed and wounded Ukrainian servicemen will be transported through the Russian territory to Ukraine on Saturday, a representative of the Russia’s Border Guard Service in the Rostov region told RIA Novosti.
"Today, more than 30 killed and wounded will be transferred to Russia at the Kuibyshevskoye, Novoshakhtinskoye, and Ghukovskoye directions, to be then delivered by the Russian border guards to the checkpoint Matveyev Kurgan, where Ukraine will receive them,” Vasily Malayev said.
On Friday, two wounded Ukrainian servicemen were transported through the Russian territory at the request of Kiev. Since at that time there were intense clashes between Kiev-led troops and the militia, no other variants were availiable.
On Saturday, Ukraine once again requested for assistance in the transfer of wounded troops through Russia, Malayev said.
Kiev authorities launched a special military operation in the east of Ukraine in mid-April in a crackdown on the independence movement. Hundreds of people, including civilians have died in both regions over the past months.
Moscow has described the ongoing military action as a punitive operation and has repeatedly called on Kiev to put an immediate end to the bloodshed. Russia’s Foreign Ministry has also urged the international community to intervene and investigate the crimes against humanity that occurred in Ukraine in recent months.
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Air Force Brat

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Send me that 01 evidence right now as I'm probably not watching RT at the moment...

Well Janiz, you should probably be a little more respectful, but having said that, it is indeed very frustrating to have all of this evidence/propaganda, and the incredible volume being generated is part of the strategy to overwhelm the senses of the sensible. I share your frustration, particularly with some who post volumes of this "stuff", which they themselves suspect is unrealiable, and although I often criticize my own administration, I believe that what Mr. Obama stated with regard to the origin of the Sam is accurate. I have limited my own posts on this thread to what I believe to be accurate, and if each member of the Sino Defense forum would apply this standard of only posting a source they know to be accurate, we might peel back the layer upon layer of deliberate and misleading statements/proclaimations, and be left with accurate evidence.

I am going to PM, Sampan, Jeff, and Popeye, as this thread once again appears to be degrading to the point of "frustrating babel", I hope each member will take a step back, and chill on the emotional end of it, and try to get to the truth. Thank you Nicky for publishing an apology for a post which you later found to be in-accurate, that is at least a hopeful sign, and my own heartfelt and personal apologies to those whom myself or others may have offended. brat
 
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