PLAN container ship thread

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
Per previously hinted at how this project was intended for a post nuclear exchange world,
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this project had a very "out there" goal that wouldn't be out of place in a Liu Cixin sci-fi story.

He points at the rather grandiose name that the site of this project has:
人类海洋与星际文明创新基地
"Innovation Center for Human Oceanic and Interstellar Civilizations"
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
As of now, there are about 7500 seagoing container ships worldwide. I don't quite see how China can fully arm them all within 4 years. So of course, the article meant 2000 individual containerized modules per year.

In retrospect, per our observation so far, a container ship with the capacity of Zhong Da 79 can carry about 21 containers in fully-deployed mode (i.e. containerized VLS erected, radar, sensor and communications systems operational, CIWS and decoy systems functional). Of course, this doesn't yet include any potential containerized power packs and/or generators + fuel storage to supply power to the aforementioned systems, alongside containerized command and support systems that would mostly be stacked beneath the top container rows.

Hypothetically speaking, 2000 container modules a year would mean ~95x Zhong Da 79-worth of armed container ships per year, which is certainly way more than the actually feasible number of container ships that can actually be fitted with such systems per year (when taking all the aforementioned extra modules and larger container ship sizes into account).

They also mention containers for drones and ASW.

For ASW, they're better off dedicating a specific ship for ASW which would require far fewer containers.

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In terms of how many container ships it would be worthwhile to convert, my guess is that the Chinese Navy could usefully use a maximum of 100 within the 1st Island Chain, and it looks like there would be enough feeder container ships for this.

Alternatively, there's no reason they couldn't use a larger container ship. Even a new Panamax 3000teu container ship is only $50 Mn, which is low cost compared to a warship hull. The containers would also be less densely packed (and therefore less vulnerable to a single hit) and the ship would have more reserve buoyancy if hit.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Per previously hinted at how this project was intended for a post nuclear exchange world,
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this project had a very "out there" goal that wouldn't be out of place in a Liu Cixin sci-fi story.

He points at the rather grandiose name that the site of this project has:
人类海洋与星际文明创新基地
"Innovation Center for Human Oceanic and Interstellar Civilizations"

That’s certainly one possible application of this, but that does not mean it’s the only or even the primary application.

For this to be applicable in a post-apocalyptic world, you will need to have a significant quantity of these container modules already built and in secure, survivable storage to have any to haul out to build a scratch navy with.

But if China already has these built and in storage, there is nothing stopping them from taking them out for use now or in the near future, or to just massively ramp up production for current day usage.

Armed merchants don’t need to be able to go toe-to-toe with opfor naval warships to be useful, especially in China’s case where it has a massive and powerful standard navy. The armed merchants could easily act as arsenal ships and extended magazines for the PLAN’s existing fleets. The self defence capabilities are just to make sure they can deal with the odd leaker and can take care of themselves somewhat to not become a liability which would require significant PLAN assets to babysit and safeguard when in use.
 

dingyibvs

Senior Member
They also mention containers for drones and ASW.

For ASW, they're better off dedicating a specific ship for ASW which would require far fewer containers.

---

In terms of how many container ships it would be worthwhile to convert, my guess is that the Chinese Navy could usefully use a maximum of 100 within the 1st Island Chain, and it looks like there would be enough feeder container ships for this.

Alternatively, there's no reason they couldn't use a larger container ship. Even a new Panamax 3000teu container ship is only $50 Mn, which is low cost compared to a warship hull. The containers would also be less densely packed (and therefore less vulnerable to a single hit) and the ship would have more reserve buoyancy if hit.
Civilian ships even of larger sizes are not survivable when hit, they just don't have the equipment, design, and crew for damage control. The cost will also be primarily on the containerized systems. It's thus better to spread the containers onto numerous smaller ships instead.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Civilian ships even of larger sizes are not survivable when hit, they just don't have the equipment, design, and crew for damage control. The cost will also be primarily on the containerized systems. It's thus better to spread the containers onto numerous smaller ships instead.

If a Frigate is hit by a torpedo or antiship missile, it's going to be a mission kill at a minimum anyway, and a return to port.

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The deck of a 500teu ship is fully used.
In contrast, a 3000teu container ship is 200m long, and with only ~21 containers spread along deck, most of the ship is going to be empty space, so there's nothing flammable.

Plus a 3000teu container ship has more watertight holds and these also hold containers below deck (unlike the 500teu containership which only starts at surface level)

So if you fill the below-deck container spots with an appropriate mix of [ballast containers] and [polystyrene containers], you end up with a ship which should be very difficult to sink from flooding.

---

I agree that cost is primarily with the containerised systems and that it should be distributed on more ships, but I do see advantages with using a larger hull
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
That’s certainly one possible application of this, but that does not mean it’s the only or even the primary application.

For this to be applicable in a post-apocalyptic world, you will need to have a significant quantity of these container modules already built and in secure, survivable storage to have any to haul out to build a scratch navy with.

But if China already has these built and in storage, there is nothing stopping them from taking them out for use now or in the near future, or to just massively ramp up production for current day usage.

Armed merchants don’t need to be able to go toe-to-toe with opfor naval warships to be useful, especially in China’s case where it has a massive and powerful standard navy. The armed merchants could easily act as arsenal ships and extended magazines for the PLAN’s existing fleets. The self defence capabilities are just to make sure they can deal with the odd leaker and can take care of themselves somewhat to not become a liability which would require significant PLAN assets to babysit and safeguard when in use.

Well, we see what looks like a Frigate-level radar system, plus the VLS cells.
So ships with this fitout should be capable of medium-range air defence.

The thing to note is the slower speed of container ships, which makes them ill-suited to keep up with naval warships.

But this speed should be fine for convoy duty and operations generally within the 1st Island Chain.
So it would free up the Type-054 Frigates for blue-water operations.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Well, we see what looks like a Frigate-level radar system, plus the VLS cells.
So ships with this fitout should be capable of medium-range air defence.

That’s a relatively complete and higher end load out. There is no reason they cannot strip this down to just a datalink module, VLS modules and maybe a CIWS module for basic self defence for a min-max strategy of one high even merchant leading a pack of mobile VLS banks.

The thing to note is the slower speed of container ships, which makes them ill-suited to keep up with naval warships.

For defensive operations, you don’t need these armed merchants to keep up with the fleet, they can just perform effective picket duty to protect the coastline by having a vast number of min spec load outs that rely on friendly air, sea and land based assets and sensors and are just required to hold station and use their VLS modules as directed.

For offensive operations against land based targets, its largely the same, only difference is they need to sail to a specific set of coordinates to spam all their VLS loads and then turn around and go home to do it all again. Note that they don’t need to be carrying naval VLS and firing cruise missiles for this. They can just as easily be packing a full deck of sino-Shaheds.

The only roles such converted ships would not be great at is traditional fleet engagements and ASW, where they lack of speed will be a real handicap. But that’s why the PLAN has a proper navy for.

But this speed should be fine for convoy duty and operations generally within the 1st Island Chain.
So it would free up the Type-054 Frigates for blue-water operations.

Thing is, 054As are not particularly great at blue water ops. Yes they most certainly can do it, but they are not great at it, and will often be the limiting factor in a fleet with DDGs.

I think the plan isn’t to free up the 054s as much as it is to be able to add a frankly ludicrous number of VLS cells extremely quickly for defensive and offensive operations.

To be frank, I think the primary purpose of these ships would be to help rapidly spin up defensive screens against enemy cruise missile and drone spam attacks to avoid tying down the regular fleet with homeland defence to free them up to go on the offensive to destroy the attackers at range. With a secondary mission to act as extended magazines for the PLAN’s regular fleet, so those warships can maximise their time on station without needing to keep making trips back to port to rearm after intense combat operations.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
That’s a relatively complete and higher end load out. There is no reason they cannot strip this down to just a datalink module, VLS modules and maybe a CIWS module for basic self defence for a min-max strategy of one high even merchant leading a pack of mobile VLS banks.



For defensive operations, you don’t need these armed merchants to keep up with the fleet, they can just perform effective picket duty to protect the coastline by having a vast number of min spec load outs that rely on friendly air, sea and land based assets and sensors and are just required to hold station and use their VLS modules as directed.

If we're talking about picket ships with VLS cells anchored offshore, I'd say it is better to have those containers mounted on trucks. It's cheaper and faster to do this, plus it's more survivable as a single incoming missile will only hit a single container.



For offensive operations against land based targets, its largely the same, only difference is they need to sail to a specific set of coordinates to spam all their VLS loads and then turn around and go home to do it all again. Note that they don’t need to be carrying naval VLS and firing cruise missiles for this. They can just as easily be packing a full deck of sino-Shaheds.


For offensive operations against targets in the 1IC, the containers might as well be launched from trucks in mainland China. In any case, there's already so many land-based aircraft and land-based missiles launcher options available.

For offensive operations against targets in the 2IC, I imagine you wouldn't want container ships to get closer than 1000km. If we're talking about high-performance missiles with this range, these will be expensive and in short supply. The constraint won't be the launch platforms (there are already ~4200 UVLS cells across the different destroyers and I think they'll add another 2000 UVLS cells in the next 5 years) but the actual number of missiles.

And if we're talking about low-cost Shaheed class cruise missiles (up to 2500km? 3000km? range), it just seems that land-based launchers would be a better option.


The only roles such converted ships would not be great at is traditional fleet engagements and ASW, where they lack of speed will be a real handicap. But that’s why the PLAN has a proper navy for.

Thing is, 054As are not particularly great at blue water ops. Yes they most certainly can do it, but they are not great at it, and will often be the limiting factor in a fleet with DDGs.

It's more that the Type-054A Frigate would struggle to keep up with an aircraft carrier, rather than the Destroyers.

If the aircraft carrier only reached 27 knots (rather than 32? knots), then I think the escorts would only be designed to this speed, as higher speeds really deplete fuel.


I think the plan isn’t to free up the 054s as much as it is to be able to add a frankly ludicrous number of VLS cells extremely quickly for defensive and offensive operations.

To be frank, I think the primary purpose of these ships would be to help rapidly spin up defensive screens against enemy cruise missile and drone spam attacks to avoid tying down the regular fleet with homeland defence to free them up to go on the offensive to destroy the attackers at range. With a secondary mission to act as extended magazines for the PLAN’s regular fleet, so those warships can maximise their time on station without needing to keep making trips back to port to rearm after intense combat operations.

I think they would supplement convoy escorts, but would also be deployed in large numbers in any Taiwan invasion scenario, rather than homeland defence.

We also see various offboard missile carrier designs with 32 VLS cells (such as the LUSV or Chinese semi-submersible). The semi-submersible looks high-speed, so it could actually operate with Destroyers and Frigates
 

bsdnf

Senior Member
Registered Member
If we're talking about picket ships with VLS cells anchored offshore, I'd say it is better to have those containers mounted on trucks. It's cheaper and faster to do this, plus it's more survivable as a single incoming missile will only hit a single container.






For offensive operations against targets in the 1IC, the containers might as well be launched from trucks in mainland China. In any case, there's already so many land-based aircraft and land-based missiles launcher options available.

For offensive operations against targets in the 2IC, I imagine you wouldn't want container ships to get closer than 1000km. If we're talking about high-performance missiles with this range, these will be expensive and in short supply. The constraint won't be the launch platforms (there are already ~4200 UVLS cells across the different destroyers and I think they'll add another 2000 UVLS cells in the next 5 years) but the actual number of missiles.

And if we're talking about low-cost Shaheed class cruise missiles (up to 2500km? 3000km? range), it just seems that land-based launchers would be a better option.




It's more that the Type-054A Frigate would struggle to keep up with an aircraft carrier, rather than the Destroyers.

If the aircraft carrier only reached 27 knots (rather than 32? knots), then I think the escorts would only be designed to this speed, as higher speeds really deplete fuel.




I think they would supplement convoy escorts, but would also be deployed in large numbers in any Taiwan invasion scenario, rather than homeland defence.

We also see various offboard missile carrier designs with 32 VLS cells (such as the LUSV or Chinese semi-submersible). The semi-submersible looks high-speed, so it could actually operate with Destroyers and Frigates
The reason it's mounted on a container ship is to push the defense line outwards from the coast. Jiangnan Shipyard will always be confined to the coast; container VLS trucks will never be able to escape the limitations of land. Look at what's happening in Russia right now, right? Faced with the potential damage from hundreds, even thousands of LRASMs, the cost of container ships is negligible compared to that.

Just think back to what slogans were on the containers. The Chinese nation must, and is, stepping out of its cradle on land. Until the PLAN is strong enough, this is a reasonable defensive tool that can alleviate pressure.
 
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amchan

Junior Member
Registered Member
If a Frigate is hit by a torpedo or antiship missile, it's going to be a mission kill at a minimum anyway, and a return to port.

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The deck of a 500teu ship is fully used.
In contrast, a 3000teu container ship is 200m long, and with only ~21 containers spread along deck, most of the ship is going to be empty space, so there's nothing flammable.

Plus a 3000teu container ship has more watertight holds and these also hold containers below deck (unlike the 500teu containership which only starts at surface level)

So if you fill the below-deck container spots with an appropriate mix of [ballast containers] and [polystyrene containers], you end up with a ship which should be very difficult to sink from flooding.

---

I agree that cost is primarily with the containerised systems and that it should be distributed on more ships, but I do see advantages with using a larger hull
Ships can be burnt to the waterline too, you know. One or two ASMs would likely be able to do it with onboard fuel and combustibles if its on the smaller side.
 
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