CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Engineer
Major
Why are people making such a fuzz about Fujian being a derivative of Kuznetsov class? The objective of 003 is a minimum viable product for a CATOBAR carrier, not design everything from scratch.
China has been working with the Kuznetsov class for close to a quarter century, and knows the design inside and out. So it is a no-brainer that the 003 is based on the Kuznetsov class, given this is the path with least unknowns and therefore the least risky. There is also existing crew that is already proficient with operating the Kuznetsov class. With everything being the same, that means existing personal could be put on the 003 and ready to go, shortening the time it takes from the ship's launch to testing deck operation.
Citing that "the Ford looks similar to Nimitz" is not a proof that 003 is a new class. It is the internal, especially propulsion system, that determines whether a vessel is a new class, with submarines being good examples. Not only is the propulsion is new, but everything is new on the Ford class, which makes Ford a new class. There is no proof that everything is new inside the 003. Beside, we are talking about derivative, not class.
China has been working with the Kuznetsov class for close to a quarter century, and knows the design inside and out. So it is a no-brainer that the 003 is based on the Kuznetsov class, given this is the path with least unknowns and therefore the least risky. There is also existing crew that is already proficient with operating the Kuznetsov class. With everything being the same, that means existing personal could be put on the 003 and ready to go, shortening the time it takes from the ship's launch to testing deck operation.
Citing that "the Ford looks similar to Nimitz" is not a proof that 003 is a new class. It is the internal, especially propulsion system, that determines whether a vessel is a new class, with submarines being good examples. Not only is the propulsion is new, but everything is new on the Ford class, which makes Ford a new class. There is no proof that everything is new inside the 003. Beside, we are talking about derivative, not class.
Yes, we know Fujian has DNA from Kuznetsov/Minsk/Kiev, even Zheng He warships if you go back far enough in time. Fujian obviously isn't a clean sheet design from scratch, nobody here is arguing that position.
My point is, saying Fujian is merely a hydrodynamically optimized, ski-jump-less, CATOBAR variant of the Kuznetsov, is as informative as saying F-22 is merely a highly stealth optimized, jet-engine powered, fighter variant of the Wrights brother plane. Basically, it's not informative or insightful, as it misses a lot of nuances and millions of steps along the way, and doesn't do the Chinese engineers any justice with this oversimplification.
Also, people hype up nuclear propulsion as a game changer, I view going from STOBAR to CATOBAR is a more game-changing hull design than changing the plumbing to add in nuclear boilers (or making the hull slightly more square). Personally, the design change of removing ski-jumps and adding in catapult system is as big as an change as you can get, design wise.
My point is, saying Fujian is merely a hydrodynamically optimized, ski-jump-less, CATOBAR variant of the Kuznetsov, is as informative as saying F-22 is merely a highly stealth optimized, jet-engine powered, fighter variant of the Wrights brother plane. Basically, it's not informative or insightful, as it misses a lot of nuances and millions of steps along the way, and doesn't do the Chinese engineers any justice with this oversimplification.
Also, people hype up nuclear propulsion as a game changer, I view going from STOBAR to CATOBAR is a more game-changing hull design than changing the plumbing to add in nuclear boilers (or making the hull slightly more square). Personally, the design change of removing ski-jumps and adding in catapult system is as big as an change as you can get, design wise.
You are still not getting it, we are not talking about catapults, deck layout, superstructure etc as it is not a part of the lower hull which is what our whole discussion is based on. Think of Fujian's hull as B737 Max airframe, it has all the fancy bells and whistles in terms of modern CFD optimisations and materials but yet is still based on the original B737. Noone is doubting what the engineers did but trying to deny the obvious connection between Kuznetsov class hulls and Fujian's hull design is just plain nationalistic cope (Which I don't know what is there to cope about, Kuznetsov class hulls are well designed.)
Engineer
Major
Either you have no clue what a derivative is, or you are grasping at straws comparing 003 to Zheng He and F-22 to Wright Brother's plane. Eitherway, your retort doesn't disprove that 003 is not a Kuznetsov derivative.
Excluding the extension they made to bow and stern on the 003 to enable a longer deck, going from STOBAR to CATOBAR is not changing the hull; it is changing the deck. The deck in this case is one-level thick but it only has to support itself and is a minor portion of the entire ship's volume. In contrast, each structure inside the hull has to support its neighbour as well as things above, so changing one structure leads to another change, then another, and there would be a cascade of changes. This is analogus to changing the roof design of a building, which would involve structural changes, but nowhere close to comparable as moving the supporting walls inside a building.
And going from conventional to nuclear propulsion is not just "changing the plumbing"! Talk about simplification! The reactor compartments have to be shielded and armored, significantly altering the load bearing and damage resistance characteristics of the hull. This is not something that can be managed with modification thus requires a cleansheet design. Such change is analogus to changing the foundation of a building.
The change from STOBAR to CATOBAR look significant but it only involves one isolated part of the ship, whereas the change in propulsion can have no external difference but alters the internal significantly. If you think the statement about 003 being a deriviative of Kuznetsov class is not informative, then it is you who are not appreciating the nuances in ship design and not giving Chinese engineers any justice.
Again, another user has said the lower hull of Fujian has been hydrodynamically optimized compared to Kuznetsov. So hull-wise (lower hull) has also been modified, not a simply copy-pasta.
Only you said this, nobody said "design from scratch" or "003 is not Kuznetsov-based". That's just your imagination.
I highly doubt that adding an catapult system will not require structural changes beneath the deck and deep within. The weight of the catapult system itself will require reinforcements beneath the deck as the EMCAT system is very heavy, which will cascade and change the structure and neighboring walls.
Adding a catapult system changes the load bearing characteristics of the structure itself beneath the deck and below, thus requiring a major design change. The underlying structure has to accommodate the weight of 3 catapult inlay rails and their machinery.
It's not simply removing a ski-jump, you have to inlay the massive heavy catapult system and it's accompany electrical systems, which fundamentally alters the load-bearing characteristics of the underlying structure beneath it. That requires a big design change (not a clean sheet since it's an evolution of Kuznetsov/Kiev/Minsk design, but let's not kid ourselves that it's just impacting the surface level of deck only).
Engineer
Major
Still external rather than internal.
If you agreed that 003 is not designed from scratch, then you agreed that it is based on the Kuznetsov design, since China has no other design they could based 003 off of.
Not on the Kuznetsov class, which was originally designed to house the Granit AShMs. Even ignoring that, the structural modification for EMAL would still be local, which is not comparable to moving a major bulkhead that runs the complete width of the ship and from keel to hangar deck.