054B/new generation frigate

[AndrewS]

When submarines can carry hypersonic missiles that go farther than the range of your ASW suite, any warship expected to operate away from your coast needs to be defend itself. So, Perry class frigate is not viable today.

Does the US have submarines that launch hypersonic antiship ballistic missiles?

As far as I'm aware, only China has/is developing a submarine-launched hypersonic ballistic missile for conventional use (with a 3000km range), as per Patch

 

[JimmyMcFoob]

Does the US have submarines that launch hypersonic antiship ballistic missiles?

As far as I'm aware, only China has/is developing a submarine-launched hypersonic ballistic missile for conventional use (with a 3000km range), as per Patch

Not yet, but the Virginia Block Vs with the Virginia Payload Module are intended to be able to launch whatever the Conventional Prompt Strike program is able to produce. However, it isn't intended to enter service until the 2030s, and this date was set in early 2020.

 

[Wrought]

I saw PLAN go from 051B to 052B to 052C to 052D in not a long time frame. I've just seen the coast guard put IEPS on a 2000t hull. I saw them put IEPS + EMAL on a LHD. None of these exactly are all that conservative. When the tech is ready, PLAN will use it. As such, comes back to why 054B is needed?

if we look at 053H3 to 054, the armament stayed the same, but they got new propulsion and completely large and more stealthy hull. 054 was a nice platform to validate the new hull and propulsion ahead of 054A. A similar change from 054A to 054B would entail a far more modern propulsion that opens the way for more powerful armament in the future.

I already explained that huge leaps are possible when you are way behind the curve. PLAN is obviously operating in a different context today. And I'd say that a single CCG hull + a single LHA with new tech is in fact pretty conservative. They are moving cautiously with one-offs instead of rushing forward. It's very likely to have plenty of tests, tweaks, and trials before whatever iteration comes next.

The same logic applies to 054B. Could they have moved more aggressively? Sure. But they didn't. And nobody should be surprised about that.

 

[tphuang]

I already explained that huge leaps are possible when you are way behind the curve. PLAN is obviously operating in a different context today. And I'd say that a single CCG hull + a single LHA with new tech is in fact pretty conservative. They are moving cautiously with one-offs instead of rushing forward. It's very likely to have plenty of tests, tweaks, and trials before whatever iteration comes next.

The same logic applies to 054B. Could they have moved more aggressively? Sure. But they didn't. And nobody should be surprised about that.

I would say the current trajectory of China's engine development and tech curve is still accelerating as fast as it was in the mid 2000s. In fact, it's going faster. Especially, when it comes with high power system and electrification. China is currently in the midst of becoming an engine making superpower, especially for marine engines. I don't know why you would assume they still have plenty of tests and tweaks? At least I see what they are doing now is pretty mature. The advancement in the past 2 years is nothing short of astonishing. So many civilian ships are also using fully electric propulsion now. If they had just waited for 2 more years, they would have all this tech available, but they decided to move onto 054B with old propulsion.

Here is what IEPS + power bank gives you: Let's say you have a 10MW/2.5MWh battery pack on top of a 38MW diesel generator. Then, on top of the 38MW power from diesel, you can get another 10MW from battery pack for 15 minutes sustained -> 48MW total, which is enough to allow your motor to accelerate quickly while also power really powerful lasers.

You just can't get that with a CODAD propulsion of 29MW. Of that, maybe you allocate 5MW for shipborne systems and remaining 24MW for just the propulsion. Your entire propulsion won't be as efficient and there is clear ceiling to how much power your ship can send on to the weapon systems and sensors.

 

[vincent]

China is currently in the midst of becoming an engine making superpower, especially for marine engines. I don't know why you would assume they still have plenty of tests and tweaks? At least I see what they are doing now is pretty mature. The advancement in the past 2 years is nothing short of astonishing. So many civilian ships are also using fully electric propulsion now. If they had just waited for 2 more years, they would have all this tech available, but they decided to move onto 054B with old propulsion.

Maybe that’s the crux of the problem, PLA doesn’t think it can wait two or more years because of the possibility of the Sino-American War in the next few years. PLA may think it needs as many ships (with proven/conservative designs) ready for battle as soon as possible.
054B may not be suitable for outside of the First Island Chain, but good enough for extended anti-sub patrols within it.

 

[Wrought]

I would say the current trajectory of China's engine development and tech curve is still accelerating as fast as it was in the mid 2000s. In fact, it's going faster. Especially, when it comes with high power system and electrification. China is currently in the midst of becoming an engine making superpower, especially for marine engines. I don't know why you would assume they still have plenty of tests and tweaks? At least I see what they are doing now is pretty mature. The advancement in the past 2 years is nothing short of astonishing. So many civilian ships are also using fully electric propulsion now. If they had just waited for 2 more years, they would have all this tech available, but they decided to move onto 054B with old propulsion.

Here is what IEPS + power bank gives you: Let's say you have a 10MW/2.5MWh battery pack on top of a 38MW diesel generator. Then, on top of the 38MW power from diesel, you can get another 10MW from battery pack for 15 minutes sustained -> 48MW total, which is enough to allow your motor to accelerate quickly while also power really powerful lasers.

You just can't get that with a CODAD propulsion of 29MW. Of that, maybe you allocate 5MW for shipborne systems and remaining 24MW for just the propulsion. Your entire propulsion won't be as efficient and there is clear ceiling to how much power your ship can send on to the weapon systems and sensors.

The warship curve, including weapons (which you were also complaining about). Not the engine curve in isolation. Likewise, the test and tweaks are happening in regard to integration with all the other ship systems. And remember that the 054B program didn't start yesterday; this thread was created in 2020. You mention rapid advancement in the past 2 years; do you expect them to throw out all their design work and start from scratch just because cool things are happening in the civilian sector? Maybe you can justify that sort of last-minute switch with something as big and important as 003 carrier catapults. But the downside costs of finishing a couple frigates you already started is pretty low.

Worst comes to worst, PLAN will simply use 054B as a transition class. Which is hardly unprecedented, and indeed might still happen.

 

[TK3600]

Is there possibility of refit the IEP engine on existing ships 3 years down the line?

 

[Tomboy]

Is there possibility of refit the IEP engine on existing ships 3 years down the line?

That's a major MLU, you need to redo the ship grid and likely face compatibility issue with electronics. Better and probably cheaper to build a new ship instead.

 

[Gloire_bb]

054B may not be suitable for outside of the First Island Chain, but good enough for extended anti-sub patrols within it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with 054B anywhere on the globe. It isn't a destroyer, it isn't built for littorals (be it USVs or gulf), but otherwise it's a fully capable design.

 

[AndrewS]

The warship curve, including weapons (which you were also complaining about). Not the engine curve in isolation. Likewise, the test and tweaks are happening in regard to integration with all the other ship systems. And remember that the 054B program didn't start yesterday; this thread was created in 2020. You mention rapid advancement in the past 2 years; do you expect them to throw out all their design work and start from scratch just because cool things are happening in the civilian sector? Maybe you can justify that sort of last-minute switch with something as big and important as 003 carrier catapults. But the downside costs of finishing a couple frigates you already started is pretty low.

Worst comes to worst, PLAN will simply use 054B as a transition class. Which is hardly unprecedented, and indeed might still happen.

The switch from steam to EM catapults made sense. The Chinese Navy didn't have any steam catapults in operation, so would have to iron out all the bugs anyway.

Might as well go with EMALs and just work out one set of problems, instead of having an orphan stream catapult system. And a steam system in inherently more complex than an electrical system.