China Flanker Thread III (land based, exclude J-15)
- Thread starter Blitzo
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Pl-15 isn't all that large, though. Original flanker missile (R-27ER/T) is way larger(longer and heavier). Russian flankers can haul up to 6 R-37M(3t baseline!) in a2a, though this is already suboptimal in opposite direction.
Realistically, PL-12/15 was sized for medium J-10 (which just about can carry it without major inconvenience), and everything else just uses it.
Just like AIM-120 is sized exactly for F-16. Any larger missile came at an uncomfortable performance penalty for that particular aircraft.
Both now work as a sweet spot - compromise between external and internal carriage comes on top.
Also, we've seen PL-10s there. In fact it's one of the most available way to tell Chinese flankers apart - other than electroclunkers, Chinese flankers always keep those stations available for WVRAAMs (using universal Chinese self defense pods under wing stations), unlike Russian ones that use them for EW pods(i.e. like very new J-15/16D, which partially broke the rule). As a rule of thumb - flanker with wingtip pods is in most cases Russian.
12, like su-35s. Two new twins in tunnel.
J-16 isn't as fresh as it was 10 years ago.
It's a flanker with one of the more capable radars, but it isn't a beater even within flanker family anymore. (J-15T, Su-30SM2, F-15E/EX), and it always was with caveats. Better IRST than OLS-35 - but it isn't a world beating standard, too - just because the format is the same.
Beyond that, it is ... normal. Additions over decade - twin pylons, PL-17(though this one is a different capability v.R-37M) - came later than Ru ones.
Su-35 was always here, but it was always more of a sidegrade to J-16 in a2a, yet with worse a2g. Su-30sm2, too.
F-15EX is probably directly compatible, and unlikely to be worse; Rafale was never about frontlining, but Typhoon now finally goes into AESA era(this fall it's finally first main operator), and that one is a strong competitor for the position.
J-16 is probably still comparable to the leading 4.5th gen heavy aircraft of the world simply because we know the PLA would have inter batch upgrades of avionics and the like.
Comparing J-16 with F-15EX probably remains the most legitimate like for like comparison so far
Comparable - sure, but this isn't a beater capability in quality (frankly I doubt it was) anymore, but rather beater capability in mass of excellent heavy 4.5 MRF (which is on the other hand undeniable).
F-15EX itself doesn't appear to be terribly different from evolved strike eagles of 2010s, main difference being fbw(doesn't fight) and new internal ew system.
In pure air to air, in theory at least, eurofighter with AESA(esp. swashplate/ew capable mk.2) should be a no brainer. But it isn't here yet(small, essentially LRIP export batch), and it's simply lighter/less powerful.
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Ooh I wouldn't be so sure about that (quality).
Knowing the way the PLA seem comfortable with giving inter batch upgrades, a J-16 of 2024-25 production pedigree should be rather different to one of say, 2017 era.
That's same about most aircraft(unless they're thrown away the bus by their mother), as they're usually born buggy.
But baseline, externally at least, doesn't appear different.
I.e. in most ways it should be same aircraftz but stable and with software refinements.
New capabilities over decade are PL-17, twin pylons (both very fresh and 10 years into service, like mini-refresher) and lots of new a2g. There was a switch in radome color(like j-11bg), but we still don't know what it was.
I don't really understand what you are getting at then.
If we are talking about 4.5th gen aircraft, the whole point is that externally they do not appear different to their 4.th gen counter parts.
A J-16 for example doesn't appear that different to a Su-27UBK.
The whole point for 4.5th generation aircraft is what upgrades occur under the hood
I already counted the fuselage tunnel. Unless the wingtips can carry PL-15, we've only seen short range AAMs on wingtips, then the max PL-15 loadout is 10 for the J-16 not 12.
As for freshness, the J-16 is less modern than the F4 Rafale but should be quite a lot more capable. PAF trained against Qatari Rafales, didn't say much except they're prepared. The PAF trained against "J-16D lite" and was reportedly shocked at what a modern EW fighter can do. Spectra became a joke. Every decent fighter has its own equivalent of Spectra. Spectra is just the marketing term Dassault came up with for the Rafale's onboard EW suite and sensor fusion. Even export J-10s and export PL-15s could break through.
I'm leaving out dedicated EW fighters like J-16D and J-15DT. Having said that, a J-15T is essentially a naval version of J-16 level technologies. The latest batch of J-16 produced is not the same as the earliest batch so it stands to reason to assume the J-15T would not possess any leap beyond J-16 in subsystem technologies. For this reason, J-16 is roughly equivalent to J-15T for land based 4,5 fighter.
The Typhoon hasn't even received AESA yet for operational Typhoons, nevermind GaN based AESA. The Captor E was developed for far too long by the time it's ready, the leading radar already left that for dead long ago. Even now, most Eurofighters don't carry the Captor E. Like pretty much all of them don't have AESA.
The Su-35 is roughly comparable in overall modernity to a Typhoon but while it represents the best of early 2010s Russian tech, the Typhoon later blocs represent the best of European tech of the early 2010s. Rafale F4 should be better than both of those. At least it has late 2010s level tech.
The only match is F-15EX which comes from the only other MIC capable nation that isn't broke. The Americans are constantly upgrading this as the only other in production fighter they have outside of the F-35. The F-15EX is also the most modern of the 4.5 gen fighters. First operational unit delivered in 2021. I expect this timeframe to roughly match the latest bloc J-16's entry which has also been constantly updated and the latest changes wouldn't be too different to the F-15EX tech base i.e. about a decade more modern than the best on Eurocanards.
These two are easily the champions of 4.5 gen fighters since they're both legacy platforms that have enjoyed software, subsystem and weapons upgrades that both superior MIC nations have produced. Pairs of comparable engines (WS-10B and F-110) with 130KN afterburning and similar military thrust, although it has to be said the F110 is likely a better engine overall considering its likely superior reliability even over the latest WS-10s.
Only other 4.5 gen fighters around is the Mig-35 and Gripen NG (blocs E and F). I'd be confident a single J-16 or F-15EX could defeat more than two of these fighters in an isolated 2 vs 1 scenario. That's how much extra energy and payload these heavier fighters carry in a stealth free engagement. While Gripen's EW and smaller size can fool its way through pulse doppler radars in the exercises from earlier eras, it stands zero chance against the latest American and Chinese AESA. Mig-35 wouldn't be a challenge to a Typhoon or Su-35.
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J-16(2025) isn't externally different from J-16(early), with exception of radome colour.
Which means it is most probably same aircraft internally, with quality refinements. For example, American aircraft over this decade changed more, catching up.
Which means it's a bit optimistic to expect it being absolute world beater full 10-12 years later. There's entire new generation of flanker after that, in j-15t.
Instead, it's a force of 4xx top of the line heavy fighters (perhaps not tip-top, but who cares), which is much more powerful than tip measuring.
I frankly wonder where cult of a2a rafale comes from. It's a professional underdog of a fighter, and we saw it beaten by many times simller straightforward aircraft this very year.
French do too much PR over SPECTRA, which at this point is considered by some like PLASMA STEALTH instead of EW. But it's just a EW, elaborate, but not even very new anymore. EW does EW things, which any comparable jammer can do as well.
It's solid, sure, but it's fighter with very rushed small AESA (which can't do most aesa tricks, and is small on top).
Rafale is much less supercruiser than typhoon, and is limited to just 4 proper BVRAAMs(and normal load is 2!). Other 2/4/6 (latest birds only) are MICAs, which until next year(first NG deliveries) are below 1990s R-77 in reach.
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