H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

Tomboy

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P.s. — Also, I’m lost. Who said anything about an 80m wingspan? Are you thinking about the correct planform? The B-2 has a 53m wingspan and 170t MTOW. Not that I’m saying the H-20 will be similar… but for the XB-70 it was a 32m wingspan and 245t MTOW, respectively.
You do realise XB-70 has about half the range required and do not have the IWB capacity we are talking about here. Even with that it already weighs 245t MTOW, how much do you think H-20 will weigh and be sized if it has similar supercruising performance along with stealth and range required. Sure with modern tech you could easily cut fuel consumption by 25 percent or even more but for the required range and payload you'll still be looking at a 300-400t MTOW bomber. Even if China somehow can build these at dirt cheap prices, it isn't practical due to the extremely high requirement on infrastructure.
 

GTI

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You do realise XB-70 has about half the range required and do not have the IWB capacity we are talking about here. Even with that it already weighs 245t MTOW, how much do you think H-20 will weigh and be sized if it has similar supercruising performance along with stealth and range required. Sure with modern tech you could easily cut fuel consumption by 25 percent or even more but for the required range and payload you'll still be looking at a 300-400t MTOW bomber. Even if China somehow can build these at dirt cheap prices, it isn't practical due to the extremely high requirement on infrastructure.
Okay. Now describe what a (i) 100 to 150t, (ii) 150 to 180t, and (iii) 200t MTOW J-36 would be like, in terms of cost and capability.

And also what “dirt cheap” means, and how much you’re expecting your view of the H-20 to cost.
 

GTI

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Supersonic bomber is basically impossible, all known tenders/papers point otherwise.
Please review this thread, and a couple of other related threads on this forum. You should even find one [re papers] from XAC themselves, iirc.
 

Tomboy

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Okay. Now describe what a (i) 100 to 150t, (ii) 150 to 180t, and (iii) 200t MTOW J-36 would be like, in terms of cost and capability.
You tell me because I don't see how is it possible to squeeze 14000km of supercruising range out of a 200t MTOW bomber along with high payload and one of the biggest bays mounted on a bomber. Please enlighten me.
And also what “dirt cheap” means, and how much you’re expecting your view of the H-20 to cost.
Mass producible with final production of 100+
Please review this thread, and a couple of other related threads on this forum. You should even find one [re papers] from XAC themselves, iirc.
You mean the decade old papers? All recent paper and actual tenders and rumor points to subsonic aircraft. Also there is no known engine that can power such a aircraft.
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That doesn't even exist in any operational sense, H-20 from rumors is expected to fly soon, possibly before Zhuhai 26.
 

Nx4eu

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You tell me because I don't see how is it possible to squeeze 14000km of supercruising range out of a 200t MTOW bomber along with high payload and one of the biggest bays mounted on a bomber. Please enlighten me.

Mass producible with final production of 100+

You mean the decade old papers? All recent paper and actual tenders and rumor points to subsonic aircraft. Also there is no known engine that can power such a aircraft.

That doesn't even exist in any operational sense, H-20 from rumors is expected to fly soon, possibly before Zhuhai 26.
For a <200 T bomber? a 14,000km super cruise range would be impossible given the design proposed by that paper with the 6x WS-15 engines.

With that super cruising bomber, it would take 155 tonnes of fuel, 0 tonnes of payload, to supercruise to a maximum range of 13,400km. And this is for a bomber with a MTOW of 245 tonnes.

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The US can get away with smaller bombers with less range because of it's vast control of the pacific and refueling fleet. China does not have this luxury to refuel over the pacific.
 

Nx4eu

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Look, I already did the calculations already for a B-2 flying wing type bomber with similar L/D ratios and similar thrust to weight. Using 4x WS-18 engines with a SFC of 0.68 kg/kgf-hr. A 260 tonnes flying wing with 118 tonnes fuel capacity and a 24 tonne payload should be able to fly 15,000 km to 17,000 km, with a conservative empty of weight of 118 tonnes (same as fuel load).

The paper that theorized the 245 T super cruising bomber only gets 9,400 km with a 25 tonne payload, that's over a 40% decrease in range by simply going supersonic. These are the tradeoffs. If the Super cruising bomber wants to hit intercontinental range, it's going to be upwards of 300 T or more.
 

tamsen_ikard

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I don't think H-20 needs to supercruise through its 14000 kM journey. It can fly subsonic for the bulk of the Journey and only supercruise when its making final approach and getting away after launching its missiles. This will save a lot of fuel.

Moreover, with next gen engines with adaptive cycle, it can dynamically change its bypass, thus get into a very efficient mode for most of the journey and then become a supercruising gas guzzling bomber during its final approach.

Also another aspect we need to think about is, does H-20 even need the large weapon bay to hold huge missiles? If H-20 is VLO, then it can get much closer to its target before launching its missiles. It can avoid detection with stealth characteristics. So, the missile it needs launch can be much smaller and shorter range.
 

Nx4eu

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I don't think H-20 needs to supercruise through its 14000 kM journey. It can fly subsonic for the bulk of the Journey and only supercruise when its making final approach and getting away after launching its missiles. This will save a lot of fuel.

Moreover, with next gen engines with adaptive cycle, it can dynamically change its bypass, thus get into a very efficient mode for most of the journey and then become a supercruising gas guzzling bomber during its final approach.

Also another aspect we need to think about is, does H-20 even need the large weapon bay to hold huge missiles? If H-20 is VLO, then it can get much closer to its target before launching its missiles. It can avoid detection with stealth characteristics. So, the missile it needs launch can be much smaller and shorter range.
Despite progress on Chinese VCE's I don't think they are currently mature enough, but if we are expecting the H-20 to be revealed in 10 years, that may be the case.

What you're describing is basically the ability to perform a supersonic dash when entering hostile airspace. Again designing for this has tradeoffs and benefits. Yes designing the engines to be variable would solve the gas guzzling issue, but unless we are also including a variable geometry wings, designing with supersonic flight in mind, you would need to use a wing with far less aerodynamical efficiency during the subsonic cruise duration. This will greatly affect range as I've commented before.

At best as you can see above, the 245 T bomber with a 25 T payload can reach 11,000km with pure subsonic cruise, a marginal improvement over it's pure supersonic cruise. This is because that aircraft has been designed around efficient supersonic cruise.

Compare that to the traditional B-2 style setup with an extremely efficient wing design. If I'm being real, a similarly sized subsonic cruise with a more optimistic empty weight would be around the same 245T MTOW range but exceed 15,000 km range with the same payload capacity.
 

GTI

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't think H-20 needs to supercruise through its 14000 kM journey. It can fly subsonic for the bulk of the Journey and only supercruise when its making final approach and getting away after launching its missiles. This will save a lot of fuel.

Moreover, with next gen engines with adaptive cycle, it can dynamically change its bypass, thus get into a very efficient mode for most of the journey and then become a supercruising gas guzzling bomber during its final approach.

Also another aspect we need to think about is, does H-20 even need the large weapon bay to hold huge missiles? If H-20 is VLO, then it can get much closer to its target before launching its missiles. It can avoid detection with stealth characteristics. So, the missile it needs launch can be much smaller and shorter range.
You’ve missed the part about the 4000km+ range missiles, which are long telephone poles. In terms of missiles, you can go slow and stealthy allowing much shorter missiles, or you can go very fast requiring longer missiles (the boosters).

Which also begs the question as to why we aren’t considering the range of those munitions in these fuel vs. MTOW vs. required range calculations.
 
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