About the difference between Chinese & Western Archers

[RickHunter]

Hmm, I find that bows and crossbows are allowed to buy in China. That's a good idea to take the place of a gun in an American family. Just talk about the difference between Chinese and western archers. I think it can help us know more about such topics as "China vs Rome" as well.
As is known to all, a crossbow is much powerful than an ordinary bow.We can use foot to reload and aim at the target for a long time, so I will start from
Chinese bows and western bows are different.So are their archers.

Chinese bow and archer

Western(longbow)

I find that they are different in structures and shooting. Which one is better to use?:rofl:

 

[Lezt]

From my understanding,

both the Asian composite bow and the English long bow have comparative draw strength thus similar power.

The composite bow is more compact, allowing it to be be used on horse back. but its manufacturing time is roughly 2 years from harvest to final product. I believe the long bow only require 1/2 a year to properly dry out and stringed.

of course another difference is the draw, European two finger draw and the Asian thumb draw. Both works well, I that that is all that matters.

now.. if we are talking about China vs Rome, shouldn't the Romans be using sling shots while the Chinese uses cross bows?

 

[RickHunter]

However composite bow is much easier for most boys and girls to use, while England could only produce 8000 long bow archers at once. The time to make dosen't matter much. Crossbows are so difficult for me to DIY, but what I want is a cute weapeon which is easier to make, and easier to use.


China vs Rome is an example...Well, it shows that in Song dynasty, crossbows were as popular as guns we use today. In europe,..middle age, isn't it?

looking forward to your reply.

 

[Lezt]

I do not think being easier for boys and girls to use - have any meaning in the military context. A boy or girl will not be able to produce the ~150 lbf to draw the war bows. If this is a recreational question, then it is a different story.

Wikipedia says that medieval Britain contains around 5-7 million people in the ~1000 AD , if we use a rule of thumb that half is woman and 50% of men are of military age, 8000 longbow men is roughly 0.5 % of the population.

China... Song dynasty have a population of ~120 million @ ~1120 AD. so if China was to arm 0.5 % of the military aged male population with bows, production becomes a huge issue.

one thing too, composite bows are extremely hard to make and the secrets are well guarded. Are you trying to make one?

here is a good link:

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also cross bows are not that hard to make with modern day materials. With modern materials, the bow string does not have to ride over the furniture of the crossbow and you will not have the traditional frictional loss associated with the bow string rubbing against the furniture. The question is really what trigger mechanism you would like to use, or would you want to recreate a Qin dynasty trigger mechanism?

 

[Quickie]

Hmm, I find that bows and crossbows are allowed to buy in China. That's a good idea to take the place of a gun in an American family. Just talk about the difference between Chinese and western archers. I think it can help us know more about such topics as "China vs Rome" as well.
As is known to all, a crossbow is much powerful than an ordinary bow.We can use foot to reload and aim at the target for a long time, so I will start from
Chinese bows and western bows are different.So are their archers.

Chinese bow and archer
[qimg]http://i0.sinaimg.cn/dy/o/2008-10-05/ccbe9e2712a086ad8b97d6f37f1c96cd.jpg[/qimg]

Western(longbow)
[qimg]http://historyshop.piratemerch.com/images/bow_and_arrow.jpg[/qimg]

I find that they are different in structures and shooting. Which one is better to use?:rofl:

Looking at the design of the Chinese bow, the draw strength, from the start of the draw to the end of it, is more constant than that of the western bow. The draw strength of the Chinese bow will still be increasing but the draw strength of the western bow will be significantly larger at the end of the draw. So, the advantage is with the Chinese bow in terms of ease of draw and resulting longer draw length. What's also important is, during the release of the arrow, how much of the energy is transmitted back to the arrow. Again, it looks to me the Chinese bow has the advantage in this regard. (Too technical, don't want to go into it.)


"The question is really what trigger mechanism you would like to use, or would you want to recreate a Qin dynasty trigger mechanism? "

I think this would be interesting. But I don't think you would have the tools to do it - the mechanism is complicated.

 

[Lezt]

Looking at the design of the Chinese bow, the draw strength, from the start of the draw to the end of it, is more constant than that of the western bow. The draw strength of the Chinese bow will still be increasing but the draw strength of the western bow will be significantly larger at the end of the draw. So, the advantage is with the Chinese bow in terms of ease of draw and resulting longer draw length. What's also important is, during the release of the arrow, how much of the energy is transmitted back to the arrow. Again, it looks to me the Chinese bow has the advantage in this regard. (Too technical, don't want to go into it.)

Both bows are cantilever deflection springs where it should follow normal spring force equation F = K*X, where K is the spring constant, and X is deflection in rads or displacement. In the simplistic nature not looking at the force vector geometry of the bow, the draw strength will be linearly proportional for both bow?

"The question is really what trigger mechanism you would like to use, or would you want to recreate a Qin dynasty trigger mechanism? "

I think this would be interesting. But I don't think you would have the tools to do it - the mechanism is complicated.

The mechanisms are not that hard to make, depending on which type you want to make. During high school eons ago, I made a rotary lock, while my friend made a hammer release version (in line with south east Asian native hunting cross bows) - basically, the trigger just push the bow string upwards off the bow string notch on the furniture. the bow string then hammers the end of the bolt propelling it forward.

 

[Quickie]

Both bows are cantilever deflection springs where it should follow normal spring force equation F = K*X, where K is the spring constant, and X is deflection in rads or displacement. In the simplistic nature not looking at the force vector geometry of the bow, the draw strength will be linearly proportional for both bow?

But the two bows do have different geometry. Never mind, no need to crack our brains over it. Another way is to built the 2 bows and then compare the draw strengths against draw lengths for both them.

The mechanisms are not that hard to make, depending on which type you want to make. During high school eons ago, I made a rotary lock, while my friend made a hammer release version (in line with south east Asian native hunting cross bows) - basically, the trigger just push the bow string upwards off the bow string notch on the furniture. the bow string then hammers the end of the bolt propelling it forward.

I was referring to the Qin Army type. Or is that used in the Qin dynasty, too? The Qin army crossbow trigger mechanism I recalled seeing is quite complicated.

 

[Lezt]

The Qin type? the hammer type is the grand daddy of all cross bow and they should have been used in Qin, atleast early Qin. now you mean the imperial Qin type...

it is actually not that complicated. It have 4 main working components: trigger, differential lever, bow string catch and the housing (okay, you can throw in the safety lock too).

I haven't built a replica before, but as a mechanical engineer analyzing it, it is a remarkable achievement for the time.

The function of the trigger is of course to allow the user to release the bolt. It acts directly against the differential lever which in turns interact with the bow string catch.

Technically you do not need the differential lever but it is there for a very good reason. If the bow is a 150 lbf bow, (I heard 300 lbf is not unheard of), it will exert 150 lbf onto the bow string catch. Bronze to cast iron (okay, it should be bronze to bronze, but bronze/cast iron coefficient of friction is readily available) coefficient of friction is 0.22, bronze/bronze will be less, so lets say 0.2.

Given that the lock (lets say directly by the trigger now) which holds the bow string catch will have to create a acting force to release it, and I am eyeballing that the trigger mechanical advantage is 1:3. By virtue of mechanisms, this will be a little bit more force than the coefficient of friction multiplied by the normal force: 0.2 X 150 X 1/3= 10 lbf.

So without the differential lever, the soldier will have to pull 30 pounds of force to release the bolt. With the differential lever which I eye ball as giving a mechanical advantage of 1:3, this is reduced to 3.33 lbf. Comparable to modern sniper rifles trigger draw weight of ~3 lbf.

now with modern tools, to build the said trigger mechanism, shouldn't be hard. To rediscover the crossbow sighting range is a different story.

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[RickHunter]

The earliest chinese crossbow made in bronze was used in Zhou Dynasty.
Zhou Li,by Zhou Gong
《周礼》四弩：夹弩、庾弩、唐弩、大弩。
There are 4 kind of crossbows(nu):Jia Nu, Yu Nu, Tang nu, Da nu.

Zhuge nu，or Lian nu，this kind of machine crossbow was not first designed by Zhu geliang(Kongming).
Hanshu ,by Ban Gu ：Biography of Li Lin (General Li Guang's grandson)
发连弩射单于。
He shot Chan Yu（the king of Xiong Nu）by machine crossbow.

By the way, Chinese crossbow is different from western crossbow.
western

eastern

 

[siegecrossbow]

The earliest chinese crossbow made in bronze was used in Zhou Dynasty.
Zhou Li,by Zhou Gong
《周礼》四弩：夹弩、庾弩、唐弩、大弩。
There are 4 kind of crossbows(nu):Jia Nu, Yu Nu, Tang nu, Da nu.

Zhuge nu，or Lian nu，this kind of machine crossbow was not first designed by Zhu geliang(Kongming).
Hanshu ,by Ban Gu ：Biography of Li Lin (General Li Guang's grandson)
发连弩射单于。
He shot Chan Yu（the king of Xiong Nu）by machine crossbow.

By the way, Chinese crossbow is different from western crossbow.
western
[qimg]http://www.dumpt.com/img/files/2n5lupo53jkfwml5080x_thumb.jpg[/qimg]
eastern
[qimg]http://www.dumpt.com/img/files/x5qku2vh17fjjdw79ud9_thumb.jpg[/qimg]

Haha I was going to bring up the issue of mechanisms but you beat me to it.

Chinese crossbow mechanisms are cast individually from bronze and require precise machining. It was recorded in a Han manuscript that if the precision of the mechanism was off by "half a rice" the mechanism would be useless.

Chinese crossbows employ a hook style mechanism as opposed to the rotating "nut" in European crossbows. To set the mechanism one would simply cock the "wangshan" (sight) backwards while a string (usually not illustrated) will be used set the nut in place in an European one. The Chinese crossbow is also more accurate in the European counterpart since 1) it has a sight and 2) the European crossbow is prone to vibration after the trigger is pulled (has something to do with the heavy rotating nut).

European crossbows, however, had superior loading mechanisms. Mechanical aids such as winches are frequently used to load heavy crossbows. This allowed for steel arbalests with drawstrengths of up to 1000 pounds during the early 15th century! Chinese crossbows are ordinarily loaded by the crossbowmen kicking on the arm (or the stirrup, after it was invented) of the bow. Some lighter ones are loaded by arm strength alone and are often used on horsebacks (commonly used during the Han Dynasty but disappeared afterwards). Large siegecrossbows like the triplebow siegecrossbow, however, are too large to be loaded by hand and must be loaded via a winch.