Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

HardBall

Junior Member
Registered Member
Could the single fix-aircraft capable catapult on the 076 be a potential inefficient design flaw moving forward? I don't understand the logic of launching only one aircraft (J35) or drone at a time. How does bring about enough firepower for amphibious troops? Even with two catapults, that's firepower being doubled. Two J35s or one-J35-one-drone being launched at once make a lot more sense in terms of fire support and long-range strike. The current 076 reminds me of HMAS Melbourne. Even the tiny Clemenceau class had two.

That's like complaining that Wasp or America class have only one run-way for STOVL operations. That simply is not their role, and very rarely would you have multiple catapults with a straight through deck design. To efficiently make use of multiple cats, you would need a different flight deck and elevators layout.

Of the ship capable of aviation, most common mission sets do not require high volume launches of embarked airwing. Things like CAP, fleet ASW, Sea control, AEW, CIS (loiter time and persistent presence are far more important for CIS than raw number of of platforms in you in air at once), etc, all can easily be done with a single launcher. The only common mission sets where multiple cats would actually make a difference are maritime air strike packages, or deep penetrating ground attack. Neither of which would be remotely common, for a nation that has CVAs already for that purpose.

Without an angled flight deck, the amount of utility you get out of multiple cats is greatly diminished, even if you need to do one of those two tasks. You would still need to perform the regular missions like AEW and CAP, while at the same time you would need to launch or recover large strike packages which do not have a lot of luxury of loiter time.
 

Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
Could the single fix-aircraft capable catapult on the 076 be a potential inefficient design flaw moving forward? I don't understand the logic of launching only one aircraft (J35) or drone at a time. How does bring about enough firepower for amphibious troops? Even with two catapults, that's firepower being doubled. Two J35s or one-J35-one-drone being launched at once make a lot more sense in terms of fire support and long-range strike. The current 076 reminds me of HMAS Melbourne. Even the tiny Clemenceau class had two.

Let's set the ground here that competent militaries design platforms with defined roles. ie. form will follow function.

Therefore, If our attempt to understand the workings of a platform doesn't make sense, the problem then isn't in the design of the platform but our understanding of what it is meant to do. The role it was designed for does not match the role we are projecting onto it.

As observed by yourself and stated by previous poster, the role of the Type 76 is unlikely to be that of a CVL. ie. It is unlikely to be asked on to generate alpha strikes or leaned on for sector, let alone theatre, air superiority.

Could the Type 76 possibly pull of a CVL "Lightning Carrier" concept? Possibly but as mentioned, the lack of a 2nd CAT means one failure and you cannot launch and you then have a big hole in whatever air sector you planned to cover with that Type 76 CVL. You also have all that wasted space that is the vehicle and well deck that is not able to support the enlarged air wing (which equates to ability to sustain high-tempo ops) and you really have a not-optimal situation of trying to get a platform to do something it was not designed for.

What can you achieve with a single EMCAT and a small deck?

If you take a page out of a similar platform like the USN America/Wasp class, then a typical air wing composition is just 6 F-35s. You are not going to achieve anything close to a CV role with that. What it can achieve is to provide organic CAS support to the embarked landing force, ala USMC MAGTF. So perhaps PLA is experimenting with a MAGTF concept? Given that there are no STOVL/F-35B/AV-8 analogs in PLA inventory, it has to go with a CAT approach to launching jets within that small deck footprint. The primary role of the Type 76 here then remains as an Amphib Assault platform with the embarked helo wing and well deck.

The other is that Naval ships with aviation facilities and a well deck are the most non-war capable and versatile platform in any navy. In OOW, they really shine in HADR roles in coastal regions. Consider why so many small navies have LPD/LHDs? Consider the not so recent 2004 Tsunami - The Republic of Singapore Navy LPDs performed a big role and iinm, shaped the RSN requirement on the future replacement amphib platform from just LPDs to now include a flat decked LHD.

What can a CAT equip flat deck contribute to a HADR ops? Probably MALE/HALE providing ISR and C3, which we can already see being used in inland disasters (eg. Earthquakes) in China. Helos could perform that role but they are not ideal due to short loiter time and high service requirements - embarked helos are better off doing what they excel at, delivering materials and evacuating people out of areas with little infrastructure remaining.

Also within the scope of OOW, consider the PLAN anti-piracy patrols in the Gulf of Aden. DDGs are not the ideal platform for these patrols. 90% of what is carried is overkill for pirates. On top of that, it's a big area to cover and sprinting to flash points at flank speed is sometimes a matter of luck as to whether you can get there in time. Helos help but again, the wear and tear is high and helo operations within a DDG/FFG footprint was never designed to support these kind of long term high-intensity usage. Putting a platform capable of launching MALE/HALE UCAV drone up is a nice, "cheap"(er) way of patrolling far flung places without having to send platforms that are not suited (solo DDG) or rare (CV).

I'm sure others can contribute other usage scenarios that will be suited to a single EMCAT, single deck LHA rather than keep harping on what it can't do.
 

lcloo

Major
Could the single fix-aircraft capable catapult on the 076 be a potential inefficient design flaw moving forward? I don't understand the logic of launching only one aircraft (J35) or drone at a time. How does bring about enough firepower for amphibious troops? Even with two catapults, that's firepower being doubled. Two J35s or one-J35-one-drone being launched at once make a lot more sense in terms of fire support and long-range strike. The current 076 reminds me of HMAS Melbourne. Even the tiny Clemenceau class had two.
First, there are vertical take off drones, there are short take-off drones, rockets assisted take off drones etc that do not need catapult. Only Large heavy drones need catapult. Then there are transport helicopters like Z20 and Z8C/D, attack helicopters like Z10 (and Z21 in future) that do not need catapult either. You can expect to see a lot of helicopters on type 076.

Also do not expect type 076 to be deployed alone. It will be a fleet the composition of which will be planned according to the mission needs. SO if they need heavy air covers, there will be an aircraft carrier in the fleet.

Air operation is not the only functionality of type 076. It has other important roles like delivering assault troop by assault boats, air cussion crafts, landing craft, amphibious IFV/tanks etc.

So what is the use of a sole catapult? It is an added advantage to a traditional LHA of the West, and a significant one if it can launch large drones like a drone mother ship like navalised JiuTian or similar drones, ans also large attack drones like GJ11 etc.
 

Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
So, what is the use of a sole catapult? It is an added advantage to a traditional LHA of the West, and a significant one if it can launch large drones like a drone mother ship like navalised JiuTian or similar drones, ans also large attack drones like GJ11 etc.
IMO, another good reason is to launch STOVL fighters at MTOW for strike missions and potentially some air defense missions as well. America class can't launch F-35B at MTOW due to the lack of EMALS hence crippling F-35B's already crappy range.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Let's set the ground here that competent militaries design platforms with defined roles. ie. form will follow function.

How much time will a Type-076 actually spend on supporting amphibious operations?

My guess is not much time at all.

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So the rest of the time, they can be used as CVLs supporting the CVs.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Type 076 is literally called a LHD which means its going to be used as one not some makeshift carrier.

So whilst the carriers are in a fleet action, the Type-076 is going to sit around in port doing nothing?

At a minimum, the Type-076 should be able to launch additional ISR aircraft...
 

jnd85

New Member
Registered Member
So whilst the carriers are in a fleet action, the Type-076 is going to sit around in port doing nothing?

At a minimum, the Type-076 should be able to launch additional ISR aircraft...
Given increased reliance on unmanned aircraft in warfare, I believe LHD ships are going to be increasingly important relative to traditional aircraft carriers to a similar degree and in a similar way to the relationship between UAVs to traditional manned fighters.
 
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