H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Discussion continued here to avoid derailing original thread.



Source of the information/claims?

While the H-20 is generally assumed to be a subsonic flying wing akin to the B-2 or B-21, there's been open chatter that it is in fact a supersonic platform:

View attachment 143048

4-engine supersonic - H20

Orcs & Ayi imply

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The decision to move to a supersonic design would also explain the lack of visible progress associated with the H-20 program despite the emergence of 6th generation designs out of both Chengdu and Shenyang.



If the H-20 is in fact a subsonic flying wing as most folks assume, then this would most likely be it:


Likewise the very existence of this platform implies that the Chinese military industrial complex is capable of outputting a subsonic VLO flying wing akin to the B-2 or B-21: the H-20 design that folks have been expecting.

So if this thing isn't it, and we don't see a subsonic H-20 flying wing soon, then the most logical explanation is that the H-20 currently envisioned by the PLAAF is in fact a noticeably more technically challenging design than what this VLO flying wing represents.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Well, the Soviets in the 1970s were supposed to design new strategic bombers. So Tupolev, Sukhoi, and Myasishchev came up with proposals. Turns out the Sukhoi design won out. The T-4MS.

1000000758.jpg

This is a supersonic lifting body design. Has huge internal space for bombs and fuel. If H-20 is supersonic I would expect it to look something like this

Shame is Tupolev got assigned to its production. They controlled the only available factory. Tupolev sabotaged the program by insisting on making some other more "proven" design. And that was how we got the Tu-160. Some B-1 bomber clone. With less range, lower top speed, and less payload.
 
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Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
If the H-20 is in fact a subsonic flying wing as most folks assume, then this would most likely be it:


The very existence of this platform implies that the Chinese military industrial complex is capable of producing a subsonic VLO flying wing akin to the B-2 or B-21: the H-20 design that folks have been expecting.

So if this thing isn't it, and we don't see a subsonic H-20 flying wing soon, then the most logical explanation is that the H-20 currently envisioned by the PLAAF is in fact a noticeably more technically challenging design than what this VLO flying wing represents.
There could be other designs of flying wings, contrary to most people's belief B-2/B-21's shape is not the most optimal for stealth as it's lambda wing structure from the back forms converging trailing edges which under certain condition could form corner reflectors from the rear, this also is why B-21 only has a single large V shaped trailing edge instead of B-2's many V shaped trailing edge.
83419-e9ce803d4e593886d8815b7824ac25e8.png
This planform is the most optimal design for radar stealth, of course the intakes and exhaust could be further refined like the B-21 which has very low profile intakes effectively hidden when viewed from the front:B-21-was-unveiled-the-backbone-of-deep-penetration-US-aviation.jpg
Exhaust could take the form similar to this ADVENT proposal which has a S-duct not just in the intake engine but also in the exhaust to fully hide the engine. Along with a very low-profile exhaust that could blend into the trailing edge for maximum radar and IR stealth.

ADVENT-engine.jpg

All of these are new technologies for China and probably the rest of the world as well, hence the long development time H-20 is taking along with the fact that it has to be large enough to have sufficient range to strike CONUS, enough space to have atleast a crew of 4 and their amenities for the duration of the mission, carry enough cruise missiles to cause significant damage with a single sortie, probably also some technology onboard for it to fit into the next generation combat ecosystem.

Supersonic H-20 right now doesn't make sense; this isn't the 50s where flying at supersonic speed and high altitude could save you from SAMs and interceptors. Not to mention the range of such an aircraft is questionable, XB-70 was the closest thing we've got to sustained supersonic bomber and that thing had terrible range despite its massive size and the fact that it has 0 stealth what-so-ever. Even if you could make such an aircraft stealthy, you'll never reach the same level as even the B-21, you also now have to deal with massive IR signature from sustained supersonic cruise. Before someone says why not just have it cruise subsonically before doing a supersonic dash, back in the 50s when the XB-70 was designed that was exactly what they thought but they later found that optimising the aircraft for supersonic cruise was in fact more efficient than trying to do both. Optimising for extreme subsonic efficiency(required if you want intercontinental range) while still being able to go supersonic is extremely difficult and is what led to Tu-160 using heavy/non-stealthy variable wings and even today this is still the best if not the only solution.

Personally, I think H-20 will neither be a supersonic aircraft nor a B-2/B-21 style flying wing but something more unique in form and even more stealthy than the B-21 radar wise while also having a lower IR signature to evade modern long range EO sensors and future satellite based early warning systems.
 

Wrought

Senior Member
Registered Member
There could be other designs of flying wings, contrary to most people's belief B-2/B-21's shape is not the most optimal for stealth as it's lambda wing structure from the back forms converging trailing edges which under certain condition could form corner reflectors from the rear, this also is why B-21 only has a single large V shaped trailing edge instead of B-2's many V shaped trailing edge.
View attachment 154568
This planform is the most optimal design for radar stealth, of course the intakes and exhaust could be further refined like the B-21 which has very low profile intakes effectively hidden when viewed from the front:View attachment 154570
Exhaust could take the form similar to this ADVENT proposal which has a S-duct not just in the intake engine but also in the exhaust to fully hide the engine. Along with a very low-profile exhaust that could blend into the trailing edge for maximum radar and IR stealth.

View attachment 154571

All of these are new technologies for China and probably the rest of the world as well, hence the long development time H-20 is taking along with the fact that it has to be large enough to have sufficient range to strike CONUS, enough space to have atleast a crew of 4 and their amenities for the duration of the mission, carry enough cruise missiles to cause significant damage with a single sortie, probably also some technology onboard for it to fit into the next generation combat ecosystem.

Supersonic H-20 right now doesn't make sense; this isn't the 50s where flying at supersonic speed and high altitude could save you from SAMs and interceptors. Not to mention the range of such an aircraft is questionable, XB-70 was the closest thing we've got to sustained supersonic bomber and that thing had terrible range despite its massive size and the fact that it has 0 stealth what-so-ever. Even if you could make such an aircraft stealthy, you'll never reach the same level as even the B-21, you also now have to deal with massive IR signature from sustained supersonic cruise. Before someone says why not just have it cruise subsonically before doing a supersonic dash, back in the 50s when the XB-70 was designed that was exactly what they thought but they later found that optimising the aircraft for supersonic cruise was in fact more efficient than trying to do both. Optimising for extreme subsonic efficiency(required if you want intercontinental range) while still being able to go supersonic is extremely difficult and is what led to Tu-160 using heavy/non-stealthy variable wings and even today this is still the best if not the only solution.

Personally, I think H-20 will neither be a supersonic aircraft nor a B-2/B-21 style flying wing but something more unique in form and even more stealthy than the B-21 radar wise while also having a lower IR signature to evade modern long range EO sensors and future satellite based early warning systems.

H-20 Hopeless Diamond?
 

GTI

Junior Member
Registered Member
There could be other designs of flying wings, contrary to most people's belief B-2/B-21's shape is not the most optimal for stealth as it's lambda wing structure from the back forms converging trailing edges which under certain condition could form corner reflectors from the rear, this also is why B-21 only has a single large V shaped trailing edge instead of B-2's many V shaped trailing edge.
View attachment 154568
This planform is the most optimal design for radar stealth, of course the intakes and exhaust could be further refined like the B-21 which has very low profile intakes effectively hidden when viewed from the front:View attachment 154570
Exhaust could take the form similar to this ADVENT proposal which has a S-duct not just in the intake engine but also in the exhaust to fully hide the engine. Along with a very low-profile exhaust that could blend into the trailing edge for maximum radar and IR stealth.

View attachment 154571

All of these are new technologies for China and probably the rest of the world as well, hence the long development time H-20 is taking along with the fact that it has to be large enough to have sufficient range to strike CONUS, enough space to have atleast a crew of 4 and their amenities for the duration of the mission, carry enough cruise missiles to cause significant damage with a single sortie, probably also some technology onboard for it to fit into the next generation combat ecosystem.

Supersonic H-20 right now doesn't make sense; this isn't the 50s where flying at supersonic speed and high altitude could save you from SAMs and interceptors. Not to mention the range of such an aircraft is questionable, XB-70 was the closest thing we've got to sustained supersonic bomber and that thing had terrible range despite its massive size and the fact that it has 0 stealth what-so-ever. Even if you could make such an aircraft stealthy, you'll never reach the same level as even the B-21, you also now have to deal with massive IR signature from sustained supersonic cruise. Before someone says why not just have it cruise subsonically before doing a supersonic dash, back in the 50s when the XB-70 was designed that was exactly what they thought but they later found that optimising the aircraft for supersonic cruise was in fact more efficient than trying to do both. Optimising for extreme subsonic efficiency(required if you want intercontinental range) while still being able to go supersonic is extremely difficult and is what led to Tu-160 using heavy/non-stealthy variable wings and even today this is still the best if not the only solution.

Personally, I think H-20 will neither be a supersonic aircraft nor a B-2/B-21 style flying wing but something more unique in form and even more stealthy than the B-21 radar wise while also having a lower IR signature to evade modern long range EO sensors and future satellite based early warning systems.
The B-2 was also meant to have a V-shaped trailing edge. The sawtoothing was a late addition / scope creep to give it low altitude bombing capability.

Technology is moving towards credible space-based ISR, there are advances in anti-stealth radar, advances in IR targeting, advances in drone technology to create kill webs with multiple attritable LO UAVs, etc. and etc.

So speed starts becoming a factor again, now that technology is catching up to stealth (not enough and in all areas to make stealth obsolete, but enough that you can’t wholly rely on it against a peer or more advanced foe). To be clear, I’m not talking about any mach 3 nonsense, or even mach 2. A supercruise speed of mach 1.2 to 1.6 would suffice, with maybe mach 1.8 max speed on reheats. The only possible VLO planform options would be different flavours of tailless cranked kite (well, if it were hypersonic speed then other options are available, VLO design would be mostly pointless).

Also related to advances in technology, LO standoff munitions may not survive against the dense IADs of a peer / more advanced foe. Hence the move to hypersonic missiles (even though some nations aren’t quite ready to publicly admit this yet). So the kind of munitions you’d need to strike CONUS would become long, air-launched HGVs and the like (also provides additional benefit of increased standoff range). The only possible VLO planform options would be different flavours of tailless cranked kite.

Honestly, if I was at CAC and had just dreamed up the J-36 after a hotpot induced hallucination — I’d immediately pick up the phone to warn XAC like “hey, so about that big teapot of yours…”

You don’t even need variable geometry to achieve a supersonic-capable bomber, again, you can just use a cranked-kite. Just look at the SR-71 and XB-70’s wings (including LEXs), they’d actually work for a VLO supersonic aircraft (after some refinements - and for the avoidance of doubt, obviously not the fuselages, engine nacelles etc.).

You can just essentially build a bigger (perhaps more elongated) J-36. I’d imagine PLAAF looked at initial H-20 and realised it might still work on 2035 US (though relying on your adversary’s failures, or decline in this case, is foolhardy). They then realised it might not be all that successful against 2030 China, let alone 2035. Or they could’ve just asked themselves “what if the US had J-36s” (yes, and of course all the other elements of a robust system of systems and kill webs)… Either the PLA is at the complete mercy of the B-21 and have done nothing to counter such aircraft, or it’s the opposite and through their work, they’ve discovered increasingly numerous and effective approaches to countering subsonic VLO flying wings.

If you really think about it, provided we don’t go endoatmospheric manned hypersonic combat aircraft, and prior to aerospace combat aircraft — everything will start to look like a J-36… the airborne cruiser needs an airborne battleship, and maybe even airborne aircraft carriers one day.
 
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Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
So speed starts becoming a factor again, now that technology is catching up to stealth (not enough and in all areas to make stealth obsolete, but enough that you can’t wholly rely on it against a peer or more advanced foe). To be clear, I’m not talking about any mach 3 nonsense, or even mach 2. A supercruise speed of mach 1.2 to 1.6 would suffice, with maybe mach 1.8 max speed on reheats. The only possible VLO planform options would be different flavours of tailless cranked kite (well, if it were hypersonic speed then other options are available, VLO design would be mostly pointless).
How is cruising at mach 1.2-1.6 any more survivable than cruising high subsonically(M0.8-0.9), it's not nearly fast enough to get you away from interceptors or SAM sites these days. Cranked kite as we discussed before are terrible at stealth when compared to normal flying wings and flying diamonds. Afterburner on an ELO aircraft would greatly compromise IR stealth and to some extent radar stealth as you no longer can bend the exhaust tube hence having the turbines exposed. In fact, you could forget IR stealth because cruising at mach 1.2-1.6 would generate sufficient compression heating to light your aircraft up on any sufficiently advanced EOTS. Another problem is that how are you going to power such an aircraft, you are going to need 6 or more dry WS-15s(or use afterburners which are effectively deadweight since you wouldn't be using them during cruise and also aforementioned issue of ruining IR and radar stealth) just to get something like this into the air, as this aircraft is projected to be very heavy due to needing significant fuel fraction to get the required range while supercruising it might even eat into payload capacity unless you want a absolutely massive aircraft. Maintaining such an aircraft is a no slouch either, so is the cost of procurement.
Also related to advances in technology, LO standoff munitions may not survive against the dense IADs of a peer / more advanced foe. Hence the move to hypersonic missiles (even though some nations aren’t quite ready to publicly admit this yet). So the kind of munitions you’d need to strike CONUS would become long, air-launched HGVs and the like (also provides additional benefit of increased standoff range). The only possible VLO planform options would be different flavours of tailless cranked kite.
There's nothing preventing a subsonic bomber from doing the same, launch a couple of large hypersonic cruise missiles and go home, it also doesn't need a cranked kite planform, large flying wing do just fine with carrying long cruise missiles. H-20 doesn't have to fly directly over CONUS as you mentioned, stuff like HACM is meant to have a range around ~2000km so H-20 carrying similar missiles could just launch missiles 1000-1500km away from CONUS to strike targets deep inside. The ocean is large, it's always possible to plan routes around air defenses especially with ELO afforded by a flying diamond design.
You don’t even need variable geometry to achieve a supersonic-capable bomber, again, you can just use a cranked-kite. Just look at the SR-71 and XB-70’s wings (including LEXs), they’d actually work for a VLO supersonic aircraft (after some refinements - and for the avoidance of doubt, obviously not the fuselages, engine nacelles etc.).
These are all aircraft meant for sustained supersonic cruise, they have terrible subsonic efficiency. Tu-160 is meant for subsonic cruise while also retaining supersonic dash ability, you could also design your bomber like them but you'll suffer from terrible range and IR stealth.
Either the PLA is at the complete mercy of the B-21 and have done nothing to counter such aircraft, or it’s the opposite and through their work, they’ve discovered increasingly numerous and effective approaches to countering subsonic VLO flying wings.
Frankly, as of right now we simply have no idea how well PLA or in fact anyone can deal with ELO flying wings. There's quite a difference between capable of detecting ELO aircraft at decent range and completely countering them(Which would effectively make stealth obsolete).

PS: IMO, the new large drone is a good example. If supercruising solves all of your problems, then why even bother still building large subsonic flying wings especially one that is meant to overfly the enemy directly(While H-20 could just launch long range standoff weapons).




tl;dr: are you sure sacrificing ELO, IR stealth, range, affordability and payload capacity for the dubious advantages of supercruising is a good idea?
 
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snake65

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Well, the Soviets in the 1970s were supposed to design new strategic bombers. So Tupolev, Sukhoi, and Myasishchev came up with proposals. Turns out the Sukhoi design won out. The T-4MS.

View attachment 154569

This is a supersonic lifting body design. Has huge internal space for bombs and fuel. If H-20 is supersonic I would expect it to look something like this

Shame is Tupolev got assigned to its production. They controlled the only available factory. Tupolev sabotaged the program by insisting on making some other more "proven" design. And that was how we got the Tu-160. Some B-1 bomber clone. With less range, lower top speed, and less payload.
More detailed picture.200c.jpg
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Can we Stick to the topic please and any failed former Soviet supersonic Bomber is irrelevant
 

qwerty3173

New Member
Registered Member
How is cruising at mach 1.2-1.6 any more survivable than cruising high subsonically(M0.8-0.9), it's not nearly fast enough to get you away from interceptors or SAM sites these days. Cranked kite as we discussed before are terrible at stealth when compared to normal flying wings and flying diamonds. Afterburner on an ELO aircraft would greatly compromise IR stealth and to some extent radar stealth as you no longer can bend the exhaust tube hence having the turbines exposed. In fact, you could forget IR stealth because cruising at mach 1.2-1.6 would generate sufficient compression heating to light your aircraft up on any sufficiently advanced EOTS. Another problem is that how are you going to power such an aircraft, you are going to need 6 or more dry WS-15s(or use afterburners which are effectively deadweight since you wouldn't be using them during cruise and also aforementioned issue of ruining IR and radar stealth) just to get something like this into the air, as this aircraft is projected to be very heavy due to needing significant fuel fraction to get the required range while supercruising it might even eat into payload capacity unless you want a absolutely massive aircraft. Maintaining such an aircraft is a no slouch either, so is the cost of procurement.

There's nothing preventing a subsonic bomber from doing the same, launch a couple of large hypersonic cruise missiles and go home, it also doesn't need a cranked kite planform, large flying wing do just fine with carrying long cruise missiles. H-20 doesn't have to fly directly over CONUS as you mentioned, stuff like HACM is meant to have a range around ~2000km so H-20 carrying similar missiles could just launch missiles 1000-1500km away from CONUS to strike targets deep inside. The ocean is large, it's always possible to plan routes around air defenses especially with ELO afforded by a flying diamond design.

These are all aircraft meant for sustained supersonic cruise, they have terrible subsonic efficiency. Tu-160 is meant for subsonic cruise while also retaining supersonic dash ability, you could also design your bomber like them but you'll suffer from terrible range and IR stealth.

Frankly, as of right now we simply have no idea how well PLA or in fact anyone can deal with ELO flying wings. There's quite a difference between capable of detecting ELO aircraft at decent range and completely countering them(Which would effectively make stealth obsolete).

PS: IMO, the new large drone is a good example. If supercruising solves all of your problems, then why even bother still building large subsonic flying wings especially one that is meant to overfly the enemy directly(While H-20 could just launch long range standoff weapons).




tl;dr: are you sure sacrificing ELO, IR stealth, range, affordability and payload capacity for the dubious advantages of supercruising is a good idea?
One significant advantage of supercruise that is often overlooked is the greatly enhanced sortie rates and strategic maneuvering capabilities. If you are striking naval targets on the pacific, being faster than mach 1 saves hours on each strike mission. Subsonic bomber aircraft will be spending most of their time hurrying around, and the same cannot be said for reconnaissance aircraft which can loiter around the vicinity.
 

qwerty3173

New Member
Registered Member
By the way, with the better LD ratios of tailless designs and the nonlinear scaling of resistance and air weight, I believe it is totally possible for a bomber with a mtow of around 150t to manage a mach 1.4 supercruise with 4 ws15 engines.
 
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