Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

[sequ]

The recent clash has proven that Pakistan doesn't need a heavy multi engine fighter for their relative lack of strategic depth. At max a J-35 class fighter but nothing larger. They should focus on single engine light and medium weight fighters, better GBAD and ground launched, long range strike munitions.

No need for J-20 or Kaan (or even the J-36 lmao)

 

[Blitzo]

I encourage everyone to actually read the post that Siege wrote in #3044

The last few pages is a comedy of errors starting from Tphuang's reply in #3053 where he came away with a partial impression about the PAF being able to fight like the way the PLAAF would fight with J-36 -- which is completely opposite to the intent to what Siege wrote.

The idea is not that the PAF's operations were equal or similar to how the PLAAF would fight with J-36 -- nor is the idea that the PAF would be able to operate J-36 at any point in the future at all, but rather that the way the PAF fought can be viewed as a more simple and less complex form of the conops the PLA have already developed today and will develop and further expand on for J-36 and the future.

Clearly people did not understand what Siege actually wrote, nor do people understand that small scale conflicts and serve as small scale, relatively unsophisticated proofs of concepts of the direction of future warfare.

Think about how the raid on Taranto was a small scale real world demonstration of carrier based aircraft against opposing surface ships that would translate to the future dominance of carrierborne aviation in naval warfare, or how the first aerial battles in rickety biplanes in WWI would come to shape the future of air superiority contests, or any number of other conflicts or battles with new concepts or technologies that were "seminal" but small scale and unsophisticated but served as viable demonstrations of proof of concepts that would come to shape the future of entire domains of warfare.


Posts about "Pakistan receiving XYZ" will be deleted.
I'm assuming people who see this are actually able to read, because everyone posting about "Pakistan receiving XYZ" in the last few pages have made me question their literacy.

 

[tphuang]

The concept of operations that the PAF utilized would be a less sophisticated version of the sort of conops that J-36 is aiming to pursue, is what I think he means, and J-36 would further emphasize and consolidate and refine that conops much much further to the bleeding edge (emphasis on networking, EW, BVR, sensors, signature reduction, combat persistence)

The idea isn't that the PAF would be able to fight the way the PLAAF would fight with J-36, but rather than the way the PAF fought is a less complex and smaller scale demonstration of what J-36 is pushing for.

I think what PAF utilized is a less sophisticated version of what PLAAF operates right now. I would think that once they have J-36, it involves to something newer. The level of control that J-36 would exert over surrounding aircraft (especially large drones) would be at a much higher level than currently you see between AWACS and fighter jet. If you make your command and control aircraft several magnitude more survivable, then that should pretty radically change how you fight.

 

[Blitzo]

I think what PAF utilized is a less sophisticated version of what PLAAF operates right now. I would think that once they have J-36, it involves to something newer. The level of control that J-36 would exert over surrounding aircraft (especially large drones) would be at a much higher level than currently you see between AWACS and fighter jet. If you make your command and control aircraft several magnitude more survivable, then that should pretty radically change how you fight.

None of that contradicts what Siege wrote -- the relevant part which I quote: "What got CAC engineers shitfaced drunk with happiness is not so much that their product is combat proven, but that there real life evidence that their interpretation of next generation aerial warfare is correct. J-36’s radical design and combat philosophy is actually the correct path forward."

The best way to view it is that the IAF-PAF skirmish (and the demonstration of PAF capabilities), current PLAAF capabilities, and future PLAAF capabilities inclusive of J-36's conops, all lie on the same concept of how aerial combat will go, but they exist at very different parts of the spectrum in terms of scale, complexity and sophistication.

 

[Phead128]

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Orca believes J-36 to be a manifestation of the AWAC with PL-17 arsenal plane concept, but not to the same extreme and a lot more survivable.

Instead of US approach of developing stealthy refuel tankers to support twin-engine stealth missile platforms over vast distances in Pacific, China's approach appears to integrate AWAC capabilities, long-range missiles, and extended range into a single tri-engine stealth aircraft. The trijet configuration likely enables greater fuel capacity and extended endurance, which reduces reliance on separate AWACs and tanker support platform which in turn reduces steps in kill chain vulnerability.

 

[secretprojects]

Lockheed graphic of tailless designs for manouverable fighter and attack from 2008 or earlier is interesting. Conceptually, top one aligns with Shenyang "J-50" and bottom one with Chengdu "J-36".

"Conceptual future tailless fighter and low signature, highly maneuverable attack aircraft. The tailless fighter concept highlights the all-moving wingtips and other control surfaces that cover much of the delta wing, and allow greater maneuverability, particularly in unmanned aircraft." Graphics courtesy Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems

(not saying anyone copied anyone, the underlying physics is the same East and West)

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Lockheed graphic of tailless designs for manouverable fighter and attack from 2008 or earlier is interesting. Conceptually, top one aligns with Shenyang "J-50" and bottom one with Chengdu "J-36".



View attachment 152444

(not saying anyone copied anyone, the underlying physics is the same East and West)

OMG Chinese copy US designs stolen through hacking! Obviously the Chinese cannot innovate!

 

[secretprojects]

OMG Chinese copy US designs stolen through hacking! Obviously the Chinese cannot innovate!

Did you miss what I wrote?

(not saying anyone copied anyone, the underlying physics is the same East and West)

I'm just saying that these two tailless configurations roughly match the two different Chinese designs conceptually, with the A/A optimised one more like the Shenyang design and the "low signature, highly manouverable attack aircraft" more like the Chengdu. I think it accords with the emphasis put on manouverability for each design, and confirms they are not rivals but aimed at different roles.

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Did you miss what I wrote?

I'm just saying that these two tailless configurations roughly match the two different Chinese designs conceptually, with the A/A optimised one more like the Shenyang design and the "low signature, highly manouverable attack aircraft" more like the Chengdu. I think it accords with the emphasis put on manouverability for each design, and confirms they are not rivals but aimed at different roles.

It was a joke. On a more serious note, perhaps this is why US defense analysts tend to label the J-36 as a "strike fighter," or "fighter bomber?"

 

[Nx4eu]

It was a joke. On a more serious note, perhaps this is why US defense analysts tend to label the J-36 as a "strike fighter," or "fighter bomber?"

No I can assure you that most US defense analysts only look at the J-36 at its surface level; big, heavy, big weapons bay, reduced maneuverability = bomber. They disregard anything about Chinese tactics and mission sets.

Same reason They call the Type 055 a cruiser, since it fits what they think a cruiser should be doing, they call it a cruiser, just disregard how the Chinese uses it, their strategy, their mindset.

Remember, a lot think, and still believe the J-20 is an interceptor, not an air superiority fighter..