Chinese air to air missiles

[Wrought]

Seeing it in action is different from reading about vague hypotheticals.

Eh, the outcome was well within the range of possible outcomes, albeit obviously favorable for Pakistan. PAF/IAF are roughly equal on paper, so it all comes down to the specific context of the engagement. What pilots, what conditions, what loadouts, and so on.

A coin will always come up one way, but it's never guaranteed to. If anyone was shocked, I would say they were either too certain of things which cannot ever be certain, or drunk on delusions. Not exclusive.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Eh, the outcome was well within expectations albeit obviously favorable for Pakistan. PAF/IAF are roughly equal on paper, so it all comes down to the specific context of the engagement. What pilots, what conditions, what loadouts, and so on.

A coin will always come up one way, but it's never guaranteed to.

Lopsided domination within the same generation is highly unusual… and not to mention that kills were made tens if not hundreds of kilometers into Indian controlled territory. These are not unwieldy force multipliers we are talking about, but agile 4.5 fighters with advanced avionics, EW, and radar warning systems. These whole calculus of the Pacific fight may need recalibration.

 

[Wrought]

Lopsided domination within the same generation is highly unusual… and not to mention that kills were made tens if not hundreds of kilometers into Indian controlled territory. These are not unwieldy force multipliers we are talking about, but agile 4.5 fighters with advanced avionics, EW, and radar warning systems. These whole calculus of the Pacific fight may need recalibration.

This is probably not the place to have such a conversation, but I disagree that it is unusual at all. Modern aircraft are glass cannons and whomever sees first/shoots first gains an immense advantage. The engagement snowballs from there. So two evenly matched forces can quite easily wind up with very lopsided domination. The probability distribution is weighted towards extremes.

Given that IAF commited to an A2G mission, and PAF presumably fired first (A2A), I am not surprised it turned out the way it did.

 

[InsaneHum]

Do we know if the PL-21 even exists at this point? We don't even have a single photo of it.

 

[Deino]

Do we know if the PL-21 even exists at this point? We don't even have a single photo of it.

I would say we hove not only no proof but even more it seems, it does not exist!

 

[Alfa_Particle]

I forgot but I think I heard somewhere that it (PL-21/PL-[ramjet]) does exist BUT after trials they deemed it relatively incompatible to PLA's doctrine compared to multi-pulse solid-fuel motors and will not pursue the tech further to operational service for now (while still having technological reserves). And I agree. Ramjet motors are way more limited in optimal launch windows, heavier, draggier, and you can't even utilise a high-loft trajectory to maximise range because of the air density at higher altitudes (or the lack thereof).

 

[CHNPHD]

We know nothing about PL-21/12B、C、D
A tech tree pic from a meeting only

 

[LCR34]

View attachment 152025
We know nothing about PL-21/12B、C、D
A tech tree pic from a meeting only

Man this is old. My opinion that PLAAF at some point thought that air breathing AAM would be the future of air combat. MBDA was working on Meteor starting 2000s and Russians the RVV-PD. Then PLAAF thought why not have a ramjet version of PL12 called PL12D. Then scale it up akin to Russian K-77 to hit HVA, called PL-21. Probably at some point they caught wind of USAF's AIM-120D project. Dual pulse, double the range of AIM-120C and thought maybe we could have someone working on dual pulse AAM instead. Whether ramjet AAM's development was continued we don't know.
Also, this chart is missing PL-9 and PL-10 shown looks like A-Darter rather than the PL10 we have now.

 

[CHNPHD]

伙计，这太老了。我认为，解放军空军在某个时候认为呼吸空气的 AAM 将是空战的未来。MBDA 从 2000 年代开始研究 Meteor，俄罗斯人研究 RVV-PD。然后 PLAAF 想为什么不有一个名为 PL12D 的 PL12 冲压喷气发动机版本。然后像俄罗斯的 K-77 一样扩大规模，以打击 HVA，称为 PL-21。可能在某个时候，他们听到了美国空军的 AIM-120D 项目的风声。双脉冲，射程是 AIM-120C 的两倍，我想也许我们可以有人研究双脉冲 AAM。我们不知道 ramjet AAM 的开发是否继续。
此外，此图表缺少 PL-9，而 PL-10 显示看起来像 A-Darter 大鼠

Indeed very old pic and information

 

[tamsen_ikard]

What is the difference between aim-120d and 260? If the size is the same, how can it achieve more range? Can pla use the same tech to make pl-15 even more long range since pl-15 is a bigger missile?