Rumoured "mini-nuke/diesel" Submarine SSK-N(?) thread

[tphuang]

View attachment 147634

btw, the hope is that with 093B or 095, they get to nuclear electric on regular SSN also.

So, that it will be steam generator -> steam turbine -> Generator + Batteries (REEV) -> eMotor + Hotel load.

If I understand things correctly, the reduction gear in electrical case is integrated with the motor, so it's a lot more precise and a lot quieter. Also probably saves some real estate.

But yeah, the big difference make with Type 041 is replacing all that crap in the middle with Stirling engine

 

[Iron Man]

Who said that the range is going to only be 19 nmi??? Am I saying to copy exactly an Iranian prototype or saying that "this is a known concept"?

The ONLY in-use missile that YOU pointed to that used this swim-out capsule was an Iranian system whose associated missile only has a range of 19nmi. As I already pointed out, this is completely unsurprising since if you put a propulsion system into a capsule, you have less room for the missile, which means it has to be smaller and with less range compared to a regular capsule that is little more than a shell for the missile which can then be almost as voluminous as a standard-sized torpedo because it doesn't have a swim-out system taking up space. How is this hard to understand?

I guess by your logic mines are useless because they move at 0 kts, have indefinite delay times, and have 0 nmi range.

Oh, so now your mini-missile is a mine instead. When launched, it didn't have a target, but the launching sub somehow knows that 30 minutes later a suitable target ship will somehow pass by within 19nmi, at which point the missile will release and attack. Got it. LOL If this was such genius thinking, you'd think every single navy with SSKs would be employing such systems. Oh wait....

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

The ONLY in-use missile that YOU pointed to that used this swim-out capsule was an Iranian system whose associated missile only has a range of 19nmi. As I already pointed out, this is completely unsurprising since if you put a propulsion system into a capsule, you have less room for the missile, which means it has to be smaller and with less range compared to a regular capsule that is little more than a shell for the missile which can then be almost as voluminous as a standard-sized torpedo because it doesn't have a swim-out system taking up space. How is this hard to understand?

Oh, so now your mini-missile is a mine instead. When launched, it didn't have a target, but the launching sub somehow knows that 30 minutes later a suitable target ship will somehow pass by within 19nmi, at which point the missile will release and attack. Got it. LOL If this was such genius thinking, you'd think every single navy with SSKs would be employing such systems. Oh wait....

I pointed to an example of the concept working.

This is how this conversation is going:

"Let's use a simple 1 engine black powder rocket as an example of a ballistic trajectory and as an example of what could reach space."

"That can't reach space. Rockets don't work for space launch."

"But it proves the principle that rocketry works and if scaled up, can work."

"But it doesn't work."

"The principle is the same."

"But it doesn't work, it's a tiny rocket, it can't reach space."

I can't help you if you don't understand what a demonstrations of principle or an analogy is. Only your middle school teacher can.

 

[W20]

"China’s state broadcaster CCTV released footage of the People’s Liberation Army’s (PLA) new missile, the “YJ-18,” emphasizing its formidable anti-ship capabilities."

Submarine launched YJ-18



Kilo-class submarines can launch the Kalibr missile, the electric mini-Nuke Sub could launch the YJ-18

But the point is: the fleet, both ships and aircraft, already has plenty of anti-ship missiles, and some are truly impressive.

The specific advantage that a low-speed, silent submarine brings is its large towed passive sonar.

Let's imagine, for example, a big nuclear submarine making noise like a lion locked in a large cage made of miniNuke-electric submarines at low speed.

In this fantasy or mental exercise I mean that the enemy throws himself against the lion who roars and falls into the net.

 

[W20]

With an electric submarine, you have two advantages.

First, it's a submarine and is therefore very suitable for being on the front line, and at low speeds (<5 knots) an electric submarine is very very quiet, and ...

At low speeds, the large passive sonar hears very very well.

 

[Iron Man]

I pointed to an example of the concept working.

This is how this conversation is going:

"Let's use a simple 1 engine black powder rocket as an example of a ballistic trajectory and as an example of what could reach space."

"That can't reach space. Rockets don't work for space launch."

"But it proves the principle that rocketry works and if scaled up, can work."

"But it doesn't work."

"The principle is the same."

"But it doesn't work, it's a tiny rocket, it can't reach space."

I can't help you if you don't understand what a demonstrations of principle or an analogy is. Only your middle school teacher can.

This is a prime example of where mental masturbation gets smashed by reality. You can't argue the details, only the broad strokes of an idea, when in reality the devil is in the details and that is where you get lost in the weeds and your idea literally falls apart at the seams. You can't beat physics, and you can't beat confined spaces where you would like to stuff extra dimensions of space into where none actually exists. LOL

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

This is a prime example of where mental masturbation gets smashed by reality. You can't argue the details, only the broad strokes of an idea, when in reality the devil is in the details and that is where you get lost in the weeds and your idea literally falls apart at the seams. You can't beat physics, and you can't beat confined spaces where you would like to stuff extra dimensions of space into where none actually exists. LOL

Nah I am pretty good with details but you didn't show any details.

Heres a detail you missed: you didn't even touch the US Mk 48 swimout upgrade, because it would torpedo your argument seeing as torpedoes have far more drag than any air breathing missile.

 

[BoraTas]

"China’s state broadcaster CCTV released footage of the People’s Liberation Army’s (PLA) new missile, the “YJ-18,” emphasizing its formidable anti-ship capabilities."

Submarine launched YJ-18

View attachment 147656

Kilo-class submarines can launch the Kalibr missile, the electric mini-Nuke Sub could launch the YJ-18

But the point is: the fleet, both ships and aircraft, already has plenty of anti-ship missiles, and some are truly impressive.

The specific advantage that a low-speed, silent submarine brings is its large towed passive sonar.

Let's imagine, for example, a big nuclear submarine making noise like a lion locked in a large cage made of miniNuke-electric submarines at low speed.

In this fantasy or mental exercise I mean that the enemy throws himself against the lion who roars and falls into the net.

The sub launched YJ-18 is so old news that I don't think it needs this kind of discussion here. Nuclear subs haven't been that noisier for a very long time. The difference between an SSK and SSN has been a few dBs for decades. And, stop spamming.

 

[Iron Man]

Nah I am pretty good with details but you didn't show any details.

You refused to acknowledge the limitations of physics when I pointed out the inevitable range limitations of any missile encased in a shell that ALSO has to incorporate a swim-out system. Your response was essentially "I just pointed to an example; I don't need to acknowledge the inherent range limitations involved". Well you do have to deal with it.

You also have to deal with the fact that the more neutral buoyancy you put into that capsule therefore further delaying the firing of the missile motor, the further the target ship will be traveling away from your sub, and at a much faster rate than your sub can egress from that same location. The math doesn't even add up and you also refused to acknowledge that, instead saying "well it's actually just a mine, really". ROFLMAO

Heres a detail you missed: you didn't even touch the US Mk 48 swimout upgrade, because it would torpedo your argument seeing as torpedoes have far more drag than any air breathing missile.

As for the Mk48 swim-out upgrade, it makes no difference to my argument, since I was talking about the noise the torpedo makes while inbound to its target. I have already noted that torpedo LAUNCHES even without the swim-out upgrade are possibly going to be quieter than VLS launches. How much difference there is between these two types of weapon launches is not known to anyone of us here, you included.

 

[tphuang]

speaking of low speed and large sonar arrays. This is another major advantage of mini nuke over conventional sub. It will be able to carry longer towed array sonar and possible larger flank array sonar (I think they come in both active and passive). And the greater power generation means they can carry more compute on board.

This will significantly improve PLAN's ability to triangulate USN subs beyond 1IC. Especially in deeper waters