Rumoured "mini-nuke/diesel" Submarine SSK-N(?) thread

[FairAndUnbiased]

Building "SSN-like SSKs" makes sense, especially as UUVs undertake more missions previously performed by SSKs.

How else would you expect relatively larger SSK platforms, with "next generation" AIP technology, in PLAN service or elsewhere to evolve in terms of capabilities?

A SSKN would be more of an ambush predator like regular SSKs, with the difference that instead of needing to snorkel or ratio oxygen, it can just stay submerged while charging batteries during the waiting phase. Then it can sprint in and out when it is attacking, and then go low speed/silent for another recharge.

SSNs on the other hand are more like endurance predators that can shadow and chase down prey.

Kinda like snake vs. wolf.

 

[zyklon]

UUVs have a long way to go to match even small SSKs in mission complexity. There is no AI that can interpret tactical picture from very limited information an underwater platform has.

I agree with you that UUVs got a long ways to go, but more progress was likely achieved in said realm in recent years than what has been explicitly disclosed in public.

We are at a point where

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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1855554012302716952

If that's what's available for export, then it's probably safe to assume that the PLAN most likely has a comparable capability, if not something more sophisticated in service given typical Chinese arms export practices.

SSN-like-SSK doesn't make sense unless it is much cheaper.

While I agree such an outcome may or may not be achievable by CSSC or any of its foreign counterparts, it's not going to stop them from trying to produce "next generation SSKs" with certain capabilities analogous to or approximating that of "current generation SSNs."

Whether such efforts will be successful or not, and to what degree, is of course to be seen.

A SSKN would be more of an ambush predator like regular SSKs, with the difference that instead of needing to snorkel or ratio oxygen, it can just stay submerged while charging batteries during the waiting phase. Then it can sprint in and out when it is attacking, and then go low speed/silent for another recharge.

SSNs on the other hand are more like endurance predators that can shadow and chase down prey.

Kinda like snake vs. wolf.

I get where you're coming from, and while I agree with you, a SSK also doesn't need to fundamentally shape shift from a snake to a wolf to be "more SSN like" in terms of capabilities.

In all fairness, a ~3,500 ton auxillary nuclear or AIP powered boat is never going to have the same capabilities as a "more traditional" nuclear boat that's two to three times its displacement and of the same generation. Not to say such a boat will equal a 093B or 095, but it might be "good enough" to mass produce if and when the kinks are worked out.

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One of the principle differences between a SSN and a SSK is endurance, which auxillary nuclear power could potentially significantly increase, even if improvements in speed, especially in terms of sustainable "top speed," are less impressive.

This may in turn allow such boats to perform new missions, that were previously largely limited to SSNs, like screening for carrier battle groups or surface action groups on extended patrols further ashore, and deploying sensors or tapping fiber optic cables in more distant waters.

I imagine you can think of a number of possible scenarios, but the incorporation of auxillary nuclear power shouldn't be seen as an one dimensional upgrade, but as a foundation for enabling a multitude of potential capabilities that moves the needle closer towards the "traditional SSN" direction.

 

[tphuang]

The mini-nuke can use VLS to launch anti-submarine rockets/torpedos at submarines it detects with its passive sonar but which are out of range of normal horizontal tube launched torpedos.

It needs VLS because China needs VLS underwater, no matter what they have above water because what is above water could be destroyed and maybe all they have left is subs.

There is also nothing to stop this sub going deep into the middle of the pacific.

In region that it is expected to operate, you would most likely have MPAs and helicopters that would be better suited to chase down submarines and perform the strike role or coordinate with surface combatant to do it.

There is something that definitely prevents this sub from going too deep. You need more spacious crew space and provisions for longer deployment like this. And if they get detected in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, they are basically toast. Whereas 093B gets out there and can still get away by sustaining like 30 knots.

There is no reason making every combat vessel capable of everything. This is not meant to be a UUV or a regular size SSN. It can do its role better than any similar sized AIP sub. And that's all you need it to do.

While I agree such an outcome may or may not be achievable by CSSC or any of its foreign counterparts, it's not going to stop them from trying to produce "next generation SSKs" with certain capabilities analogous to or approximating that of "current generation SSNs."

What's the point? If you just want powerful nuclear subs everywhere, why are you still building this? Just go to a fully regular sized nuclear fleet like USN.

One of the principle differences between a SSN and a SSK is endurance, which auxillary nuclear power could potentially significantly increase, even if improvements in speed, especially in terms of sustainable "top speed," are less impressive.

This may in turn allow such boats to perform new missions, that were previously largely limited to SSNs, like screening for carrier battle groups or surface action groups on extended patrols further ashore, and deploying sensors or tapping fiber optic cables in more distant waters.

I imagine you can think of a number of possible scenarios, but the incorporation of auxillary nuclear power shouldn't be seen as an one dimensional upgrade, but as a foundation for enabling a multitude of potential capabilities that moves the needle closer towards the "traditional SSN" direction.

none of this hypothetical scenarios explain why you need VLS.

If you truly want SSNs with VLS everywhere, then you should build only 093B and 095. I'm actually entirely okay with that kind of move.

 

[AndrewS]

This may in turn allow such boats to perform new missions, that were previously largely limited to SSNs, like screening for carrier battle groups or surface action groups on extended patrols further ashore, and deploying sensors or tapping fiber optic cables in more distant waters.

I imagine you can think of a number of possible scenarios, but the incorporation of auxillary nuclear power shouldn't be seen as an one dimensional upgrade, but as a foundation for enabling a multitude of potential capabilities that moves the needle closer towards the "traditional SSN" direction.

Your posited scenarios don't really make sense:

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Deploying sensors or tapping fibre optic cables is more of a peacetime activity.
And during peacetime, there are more than enough spare submarines to do this.

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A SSKN just doesn't have the speed to keep up with a carrier group or even a surface action group.

That is simply a function of the small reactor, which I think is dictated by the requirement to ensure there isn't enough critical mass (nuclear fuel) for an uncontrolled chain reaction and subsequent meltdown. That means the reactor can be kept small, simple and low cost.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I get where you're coming from, and while I agree with you, a SSK also doesn't need to fundamentally shape shift from a snake to a wolf to be "more SSN like" in terms of capabilities.

In all fairness, a ~3,500 ton auxillary nuclear or AIP powered boat is never going to have the same capabilities as a "more traditional" nuclear boat that's two to three times its displacement and of the same generation. Not to say such a boat will equal a 093B or 095, but it might be "good enough" to mass produce if and when the kinks are worked out.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

One of the principle differences between a SSN and a SSK is endurance, which auxillary nuclear power could potentially significantly increase, even if improvements in speed, especially in terms of sustainable "top speed," are less impressive.

This may in turn allow such boats to perform new missions, that were previously largely limited to SSNs, like screening for carrier battle groups or surface action groups on extended patrols further ashore, and deploying sensors or tapping fiber optic cables in more distant waters.

I imagine you can think of a number of possible scenarios, but the incorporation of auxillary nuclear power shouldn't be seen as an one dimensional upgrade, but as a foundation for enabling a multitude of potential capabilities that moves the needle closer towards the "traditional SSN" direction.

one thing is VLS on a SSK is that it gives away the position, but the SSK can't run very fast. The first warning of a cruise missile from VLS is breaking the surface and the launcher position can be back calculated easily if it is from a VLS.

The same is not true for a tube launched cruise missile since the float and release can be delayed. And of course, usually the first warning of a torpedo is something sinking.

I find that navies with SSNs (Russia, China) and navies that don't have a substantial land attack mission (Japan) don't put VLS on their SSKs, even if they can. Taigei, 039A and Lada are all torpedo only.

 

[AndrewS]

A SSKN would be more of an ambush predator like regular SSKs, with the difference that instead of needing to snorkel or ratio oxygen, it can just stay submerged while charging batteries during the waiting phase. Then it can sprint in and out when it is attacking, and then go low speed/silent for another recharge.

SSNs on the other hand are more like endurance predators that can shadow and chase down prey.

Kinda like snake vs. wolf.

I think you can divide it into:

1. lower cost SSK(N)s having a comparative advantage in littoral conditions near chokepoints where the targets have to approach
2. whereas SSNs have a relative advantage in the open oceans and if the operating areas are more distant

 

[AndrewS]

Point is if a 093B can make use of VLS cells in waters closer to home that are currently prioritized by the PLAN, so can a "mini nuke SSK," especially given its probable advantages over "more conventional" SSK platforms in terms of speed and endurance.

I actually see SSNs with VLS cells being deployed primarily for the 2IC and beyond.

Anything in the 1IC is better targeted by missiles launched from aircraft and trucks.

Remember that all of the 1IC is within 1300km of mainland China.
This can be reached by truck-launched Tomahawk-class LACMs and Shaheed piston-engine cruise missiles.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I think you can divide it into:

1. lower cost SSK(N)s having a comparative advantage in littoral conditions near chokepoints where the targets have to approach
2. whereas SSNs have a relative advantage in the open oceans and if the operating areas are more distant

not just comparative advantage, absolute advantage. SSK(N)s can stay 99% silent on battery mode with either no engine running at all (SSKs) or reactor on minimum (SSKNs) and mechanically decoupled from transmissions. They are also small enough to hide between underwater obstacles.

it is extremely hard to find a crawling or still SSK in littorals due to combination of things like high background noise, many obstacles and multipath propagation from the waveguide effect.

 

[00CuriousObserver]

Sharing a comment by 勤劳朴实罗素历, in that the "SSK-N" should be thought of more as a traditional SSN rather than a "mixed blood SSK"

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[Jason_]

Sharing a comment by 勤劳朴实罗素历, in that the "SSK-N" should be thought of more as a traditional SSN rather than a "mixed blood SSK"

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View attachment 147507

My translation:

The baby orca should be considered a traditional SSN, and not a hybrid SSK.

In terms of underwater endurance and high sustained underwater speed, the baby orca is overwhelmingly superior to traditional AIP SSK.

The cost of doing this is that it will offend some people. Some people (Japanese and Korean fanboys) know the baby orca is superior, but they still want to think their favorite Soryu, Taigei and KSS-II classes are just as good. Other people are too invested in the SSK research and development and act like their jobs depend on SSK programs (even if they don't actually work in the industry).