Battle of Shanghai, 1937

lightspeed · Jan 17, 2015

solarz said:
The 29th Army fought with swords against Japanese rifles and artillery, and held out for 3 months.

You claim that China would have been a pushover for the Japanese in the early 1930's, but the historical facts simply do not support it. I have no doubt that Jiang thought as you did, and history has shown that Jiang ended in failure.

don’t believe all the sword stories in the TV shows.

in spring 1937, the 29th army, 37th division, enhanced 3rd battalion ( 4 infantry companies, 1 light and 1 heavy mortars companies, 1 heavy machine guns company ) defended Wanping city and Lugouqiao areas.

on July 14, Chiang Kai Shek gave Song Zheyuan the necessary military support. Chiang instructed He Yingqin to deploy 6 anti-aircraft companies to Baoding, and to deliver 2 million bullets to the 29th army. on the 17th, Chiang ordered the 26th route army and the 40th army to be under the command of Song.

on July 19, in the Lugouqiao area, the Japanese launched artillery attacks on the Chinese defenders. the defenders fought back with mortar attacks.

source: ( 郭汝瑰, 中国抗日战争正面战场作战记, 第三部分："七七”事变和平津作战" )

according to the memoirs of Qin Dechun and Heh Jifeng. prior to the Lugouqiao incident, the 29th army soldiers were equipped with modern Czechoslovakia rifles and grenades, a company had 6 light machine guns, a regiment had a mortar company and a heavy machine gun company, a division had an artillery battalion, etc…

it seems that the 29th army military equipment had matched the level of the central army and so much superior than the provincial armies.

Chiang’s eventual defeat to the CCP doesn’t change the fact that Chiang and the KMT deserved great credits for holding China for 7 long hard years to eventual victory in the anti-Japanese war.

Geographer · Jan 18, 2015

Yet, history proved that the most important thing Jiang lost was the hearts and minds of the people. His decision to appease the Japanese sowed the seed that would result in his removal from power

This is hard for me to believe because, starting with the Battle of Shanghai, Chiang and the KMT resisted the Japanese invasion tooth and nail. Who, by 1945, thought, "Sure the KMT fought like hell against the Japanese for eight years and took millions of casualties, but they appeased Japan in the early 30s so I don't think they are really nationalist"?

montyp165 · Jan 18, 2015

Geographer said:
This is hard for me to believe because, starting with the Battle of Shanghai, Chiang and the KMT resisted the Japanese invasion tooth and nail. Who, by 1945, thought, "Sure the KMT fought like hell against the Japanese for eight years and took millions of casualties, but they appeased Japan in the early 30s so I don't think they are really nationalist"?

It may be instructive to read how the communists approached economic issues during the War of Resistance to better understand the methodologies involved in CCP logistics, here's one written in 1942:

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Geographer · Jan 18, 2015

Please summarize it, montyp165. What are its main points?

solarz · Jan 19, 2015

lightspeed said:
don’t believe all the sword stories in the TV shows.

in spring 1937, the 29th army, 37th division, enhanced 3rd battalion ( 4 infantry companies, 1 light and 1 heavy mortars companies, 1 heavy machine guns company ) defended Wanping city and Lugouqiao areas.

on July 14, Chiang Kai Shek gave Song Zheyuan the necessary military support. Chiang instructed He Yingqin to deploy 6 anti-aircraft companies to Baoding, and to deliver 2 million bullets to the 29th army. on the 17th, Chiang ordered the 26th route army and the 40th army to be under the command of Song.

on July 19, in the Lugouqiao area, the Japanese launched artillery attacks on the Chinese defenders. the defenders fought back with mortar attacks.

source: ( 郭汝瑰, 中国抗日战争正面战场作战记, 第三部分："七七”事变和平津作战" )

according to the memoirs of Qin Dechun and Heh Jifeng. prior to the Lugouqiao incident, the 29th army soldiers were equipped with modern Czechoslovakia rifles and grenades, a company had 6 light machine guns, a regiment had a mortar company and a heavy machine gun company, a division had an artillery battalion, etc…

it seems that the 29th army military equipment had matched the level of the central army and so much superior than the provincial armies.

Chiang’s eventual defeat to the CCP doesn’t change the fact that Chiang and the KMT deserved great credits for holding China for 7 long hard years to eventual victory in the anti-Japanese war.

The Big Sword Unit is well documented. They fought in the Defense of the Great Wall in 1933. What is your relevance in bringing up its state of equipment in 1937?

solarz · Jan 19, 2015

Geographer said:
This is hard for me to believe because, starting with the Battle of Shanghai, Chiang and the KMT resisted the Japanese invasion tooth and nail. Who, by 1945, thought, "Sure the KMT fought like hell against the Japanese for eight years and took millions of casualties, but they appeased Japan in the early 30s so I don't think they are really nationalist"?

That's because with the loss of Shanghai (and Nanjing), Jiang's core power was now threatened.

No one said the KMT wasn't nationalist, don't muddy up the issue. Jiang lost the hearts and minds of the Chinese people because he showed that he only cared about his own power and not about the rest of China. His abandoning of Northern China created the perfect recruiting grounds for his opposition, which happened to be the CCP.

lightspeed · Jan 19, 2015

solarz said:
The Big Sword Unit is well documented. They fought in the Defense of the Great Wall in 1933. What is your relevance in bringing up its state of equipment in 1937?

the Big Swords’ relative success in some battles didn’t change the big picture by any means nor gave support to the idea that China was strong enough to fight Japan then. the Defense of the Great Wall 1933 was a Japanese victory, their air and artillery powers decisively defeated the Chinese forces.

solarz · Jan 20, 2015

lightspeed said:
the Big Swords’ relative success in some battles didn’t change the big picture by any means nor gave support to the idea that China was strong enough to fight Japan then. the Defense of the Great Wall 1933 was a Japanese victory, their air and artillery powers decisively defeated the Chinese forces.

No, their successes highlighted the fact that had the defenders of the Great Wall received more support from Jiang, they could have held out much longer against, if not outright repelled, the Japanese. The Japanese are no match for China when it comes to staying power, and had China held the Great Wall against them, the Japanese would have been severely impaired in their war resources.

Geographer · Jan 20, 2015

No, their successes highlighted the fact that had the defenders of the Great Wall received more support from Jiang, they could have held out much longer against, if not outright repelled, the Japanese. The Japanese are no match for China when it comes to staying power, and had China held the Great Wall against them, the Japanese would have been severely impaired in their war resources.

Thanks for mentioning the 1933 Defense of the Great Wall, I didn't know about it. From what I read on Wikipedia, the Chinese soldiers put admirable resistance despite being heavily outgunned.

Nevertheless, is it plausible to think 1) China would have defeated Japan in an all-out war in Manchuria in 1931, or 2) Japan would have been persuaded to take its imperial ambitions elsewhere? Japan's military was far more organized, experienced, and better equipped than China's in 1931. Moreover, Japan was determined to take Manchuria to access its natural resources. The Imperial Japanese Army was weaker without Manchuria's industrial base but still considerably stronger than the Chinese army. If China had mobilized immediately against Japan, what's to stop Japan mobilizing everything it had against China, and starting the Second Sino-Japanese War six years earlier? China would have been in even worse shape then, because they would have had to endure ten years of one-on-one war, rather than four, until America entered the war.

PanAsian · Jan 20, 2015

lightspeed said:
before the Xi’an incident, Zhang Xueliang didn’t know that the KMT and the CCP were involved in detailed peace talks, and by late 1936, they had agreed in principle to the final terms. in the end, Zhang Xueliang was just a sacrificial pawn who foolishly played hero in the grand scheme of things and dug his own grave.

there were 22 major campaigns in the anti-Japanese war, and they determined the outcome of the war. China achieved 11 victories, claimed 3 tactical victories and suffered 8 defeats. overall, the KMT army performed admirably and well enough, against the formidable Japanese army, which was rated very highly by military experts and ranked among the top 5 armies in the world then.

You are missing the point by looking at the situation with hindsight and purely from the military strategic angle of the leadership. At the time whether it is from the viewpoint of Zhang Xueliang or any other Chinese person the known fact is that Chiang Kaishek ceded large amounts of Chinese territory and citizenry to Japanese control without meaningful resistance while actively instigating fighting with other Chinese factions. In the atmosphere of popular Chinese nationalism at the time this was interpreted as treason in principle, and in reality it was abandonment in person for the Chinese who were ceded to Japanese control. Unfortunately morale and popular support can only be preserved in retreat on home territory after making a stand against all odds and have it proven to be in vain the hard way, and the retreat has to be clearly framed as regrouping to fight another day.

Battle of Shanghai, 1937

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