Anti-Torpedo Weapons & countermeasure systems

Kurt

Junior Member
Sounds like a good application for supercavitation that creates very fast short distance torpedoes.
The weapon might further benefit if it has a directed explosion that leaves much of the defensive torpedo intact for recovery and reuse. It operates at short range, so it can reasonably be wire guided, delegating the information processing to the ship's computers and enabling the use of multi-spectral information from passive and active sonar and observation of wave patterns.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
The Soviet Udav-1 anti-submarine system also has an integral anti-torpedo defence capability. It is consist of a 10 tube rocket launcher controlled by the ship's ASW system. In anti-torpedo role it launches a barrage of up to 10 projectiles which consist of a mix of accoustic decoy and active homing anti-torpedo depth charges. Upon entering the water the decoy attracts the incoming torpedo while the anti-torpedo depth charhes steers steer themselves towards the sound of incoming torpedo and explode by proximity fuse in a barrage ahead of the incoming torpedo.

The system was installed on the Admiral Kuznetsov CV, the last Kirov class CGN, the sole Udaloy II DDG, and a few others.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Soviet Udav-1 anti-submarine system also has an integral anti-torpedo defence capability. It is consist of a 10 tube rocket launcher controlled by the ship's ASW system. In anti-torpedo role it launches a barrage of up to 10 projectiles which consist of a mix of accoustic decoy and active homing anti-torpedo depth charges. Upon entering the water the decoy attracts the incoming torpedo while the anti-torpedo depth charhes steers steer themselves towards the sound of incoming torpedo and explode by proximity fuse in a barrage ahead of the incoming torpedo.


udav-1.jpg

UDAV-1 Launcher

This is very similar to the systems being employed on Russian, Chinese, Indain, and other vessels. The UDAV-1 had a ten weapon launcher. The systems today are 12 weapon launchers, and may use many of the same controlers.

The RBU-6000 is used by many of these vessels. iIt is difficult to say whether they are upgrades and are in fact UDAV systems, or seperate systems performing the same function. They certainly appear very similar. They are used both in the anti-submarine and anti-torpedo role as you describe, launching up to 12 weapons carrying depth charges in barrages.


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RBU-6000 Launcher

An updated system, the RPK-8 is very similar but launches weapons that carry guided/homing depth charges in similar barrages.


rpk_rpk-8%20001.jpg

RPK-8 Launcher

The Liaoning has two of these type systems on aft sponsons.


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ASW Barrage Launchers on the Liaoning

Many other PLAN surface combatants emply them, or similar measures.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
I believe we had this discussion before . Main problem for hard-kill anti-torpedo weapon is not to destroy individual torpedo but to keep track of other torpedoes when first detonation occurs . Torpedoes are detect with sonar , so pinpointing exact distance , depth and speed is not straightforward as with radar detection . Let's assume enemy fires salvo of 3 torpedoes at your ship with distance of few hundred meters between them (standard spread ) . You are able to detect all of them and even to calculate firing solution . But , as soon you destroy first torpedo , detonation creates disturbance in the water and you loose contact with other two . Yes , you could reacquire them , but it would waste precious moments you may not have .
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
I believe we had this discussion before . Main problem for hard-kill anti-torpedo weapon is not to destroy individual torpedo but to keep track of other torpedoes when first detonation occurs . Torpedoes are detect with sonar , so pinpointing exact distance , depth and speed is not straightforward as with radar detection . Let's assume enemy fires salvo of 3 torpedoes at your ship with distance of few hundred meters between them (standard spread ) . You are able to detect all of them and even to calculate firing solution . But , as soon you destroy first torpedo , detonation creates disturbance in the water and you loose contact with other two . Yes , you could reacquire them , but it would waste precious moments you may not have .

True, but wouldn't the other two torpedoes would have to do the same thing as to reacquire the location of the ship as well, especially when three hard-kill torpedo weapon are fired and detonated in response to the 3 oncoming torpedoes (even if it missed)?
 

shen

Senior Member
True, but wouldn't the other two torpedoes would have to do the same thing as to reacquire the location of the ship as well, especially when three hard-kill torpedo weapon are fired and detonated in response to the 3 oncoming torpedoes (even if it missed)?

not if the torpedoes are wake homers.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
True, but wouldn't the other two torpedoes would have to do the same thing as to reacquire the location of the ship as well, especially when three hard-kill torpedo weapon are fired and detonated in response to the 3 oncoming torpedoes (even if it missed)?

The wake of the ship does not disappear. If they use it for guidance instead of sonar, they don't have the same trouble.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The wake of the ship does not disappear. If they use it for guidance instead of sonar, they don't have the same trouble.
But assuming they had an intial track on the wake homers (or other unguided weapons), then the firing solution against them is fairly straight forward.

They know the speed, they know the direction, and so shooting the defensive weapon along that track and knwoing closely when the thing needs to detonate becomes something a fire control computer will be able to handle.

That's why the barrage methods of the RBU-6000 type weapon remain a decent last ditch defense to this day.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
not if the torpedoes are wake homers.

The wake of the ship does not disappear. If they use it for guidance instead of sonar, they don't have the same trouble.



If I understand the principle of wake homing correctly, then it relies on an optical sensor to look straight up from the torpedo to the ocean surface to detect how much the water directly over the torpedo has been churned up. Once the torpedo detected that it has passes under water churned up by the ship's wake and then passed out the other side, it starts to make large S turns in a preprogramed pattern to try to find the next patch of the water that has been churned up by the same wake. It keeps doing this to weave from side to side under the long strip of churned water that is the ship's wake, until it eventually come under the ship, when presumable it would be detonated either by detecting the ship's shadow, or by sensing the ship magnetically, accoustically, or by pressure wave.

So, that means wake homers are not nearly as formidable or unshakeable as might be imagined.

1. The torpedo is not homing straight at the current location of the ship. Instead it is weaving from side to side in a S pattern under the wake. So it is pursuing an inefficient trajectory, and the closing speed of torpedo upon target is likely significantly less than the difference between the raw speed of the torpedo and the target, making the work and tracking the torpedo easier.

2. Once the wake track is acquired the torpedo possibly has only 50/50 chance of tracking the wake the right way and run towards the ship rather than away from it. If it starts tracking the wrong way, it is unclear how long it it will take, if it can, to detect the error, make up for the lost ground and regain the target.

3. If the anti-torpedo system manage to explode several large charges to churn up a broad patch of sea around the ship's wake, the wake homing torpedo would likely become mighty confused when it reaches that patch.

4. If a carrier detects the incoming wake homer, presumably its escorts can start to weave their own wakes across the carrier's wake to further confuse the wake homer.

5. If the target, or one of the escorts weaving in and out of the target's wake, makes an emergency 360 turn, what would the wake homer do when it reaches the loop in the wake? Would it start to effectively chase its own tail and circle until it runs out of fuel under the circular wake?

6. If water is already very churned up by heavy seas, wake homing might not work.

7. If wake sesnor relies on light passing through churned water to detect wake, then wake homing probably doesn't work very well at night, when there might be relatively little ambient light passing down through the churned water to allow the torpedo to sense a wake.

8. During day time it might even be possible for the target to lay down a heavy smoke screen to put its wake into a shadow to reduce the detectablility of the churning water.

9. The target might even be able to blind the torpedo's optical wake sensor by injecting large quantity of opaque ink into its own wake, or suppress the churn of water in its wake by purposedly discharging a heavy oil slick to change surface tension of the sea. It is a well known seamenly method for claiming a patch of calm water in the midst of a storm by releasing oil into the sea around the ship, at least in the days before such method would be considered a sin against the environment.
 
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