Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Bose said:

I raised the question regarding MiG-29K & Rafale-M mainly due to the fact that none of the probable aircraft (J-31 or J-15) is a matured product like the other two. If J-31 is the proposed fighter, it would mean Liaoning will be without a proper air-wing for at least 18 months. So my though was, would it not have been better to get two squadrons of those aircraft and built up the capability. The only thing lacking for PLAN is actual deck operation where as there should not be any doubt that they will learn fast operating the carrier. But it is the air component that is the main task and without good number of aircraft, operating/learning a proper carrier operation looks too far away for PLAN. Once they get deck based aircraft, I'm certain that they will learn the basics fast and evolve, but the non-availability of a matured carrier based aircraft to aid that development is the main draw back here.


Regarding MiG-29K, it was a multi-role aircraft to start with, compared to its Sukhoi counterpart Su-33. It was not even a contest on which was technically superior. The original plan was to equip their new carrier Ulyanovsk with Su-33 (air-defence) & MiG-29K (multi-role/strike), but the tightening of the budget meant a choice had to be made between the two. So the decision was between a multi-role combat aircraft whose main weapons development was not complete which demanded more funds & time and an air-defence fighter with its armaments ready. Due to the financial situation prevailing, the multi-role/strike component got eliminated and it probably became a contest between MiG-29K & Su-33 for air-defence role. In this role Su-33 with its longer range & to an extent lower approach speed made it on to the deck.

Present MiG-29K have nothing much to do with the original MiG-29s (9.12).
MiG-29M (9.15) 1986
MiG-29K (9.31) 1988
MiG-29K (9.41) 2008

MiG-29M that flew in 1986 was a multi-role aircraft completely different from the earlier model, including larger fuel capacity. MiG-29K was a further development of this MiG-29M. The developments from these projects and systems developed for these multi-role fighter made the SD/SE & SMT packages in the early 90s for the MiG-29s. So there was only one multi-role fighter of new generation in the late 80s and that was MiG-29 & 29K. Sukhoi was a purely air-defence fighter. It was from the SMT package derived from the 29M & 29K programmes that Sukhoi developed/based its on multi-role packages for the Flankers.
Also, conclusions that MiG-29K is the worst aircraft after Sea Harriers could not have come from a working unit inside head. If we are to come to such a view due to the capability that came with size difference, we can arrive at a similar conclusion that a J-20 based naval fighter would have been better than J-31 based.

Btw... today is a special day for MiG-29K (& Su-33) program. 23 years ago, on 1st Nov 1989, MiG-29K (9.31) made its first carrier landing.

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Obi Wan Russell said:

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So Ark is to be scrapped, Illustrious is to be preserved (believe it when I see it) and according to Lord West, Ark's name will now be free for a new warship... PoW? Fingers crossed!

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Hammond: Keep Both Carriers in Royal Navy Service
Nov. 1, 2012 - 11:43AM | By ANDREW CHUTER

LONDON — British Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has thrown his weight behind the Royal Navy operating both of the new aircraft carriers once the new Queen Elizabeth class warships enter service starting late this decade.

Hammond said no decision would be taken before the 2015 strategic defense review on whether the second carrier would be retained for use by the Royal Navy, but the “relatively modest” additional £70 million pounds ($112.7 million) annual cost of having the two warships available is an “extremely good investment,” he told the Royal United Services Institute annual air power conference in London Nov 1.
The British government’s decision earlier this year to switch back to purchasing the short take-off, vertical-landing variant of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter meant there was now “a realistic possibility of both carriers coming into service,” said Hammond.

[...]

Hammond also used his speech to settle a row between the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy over exactly how many jets should be routinely deployed on board the aircraft carrier once it enters service.
The British F-35 fleet will be operated by a joint RAF/RN force. The exact number of aircraft to be purchased initially remains unclear, but media reports have put the figure at between 40 and 48.
The RAF has been arguing for a small number of aircraft to be routinely deployed on the carrier in the early years as the overall fleet of aircraft is built up. The number is unknown, but one RN source said it was in single figures.
Hammond appeared to end the debate, saying the RN would “routinely embark 12 jets when deployed outside home waters with an ability to surge that number higher in periods of tension.” ...

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Miragedriver said:

Unfortunately this is the fate of most aircraft carriers (other than US ones). After years of dedicated service they are converted to pots and pans, which are then sold in Ikea. Destroyers and frigates end up as reefs

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By Mike Hixenbaugh
The Virginian-Pilot
© November 4, 2012

ABOARD THE ENTERPRISE

This massive ship was covered in red lead paint and sitting on a dry dock in Newport News the first time Ray Godfrey laid eyes on it.

The sailor was a 21-year-old high school drop out.

Now 73, Godfrey teared up Sunday while standing on the bridge of the world’s first nuclear-powered aircraft carrier as he watched a young helmsman steer the Enterprise toward its final homecoming.

From the tower, Godfrey looked down on thousands of cheering family members who had arrived hours earlier at Pier 12 at Norfolk Naval Station to welcome the ship and its crew home after an eight-month deployment – the ship’s 25th and final.

Fifty years ago, Godfrey took part in a similar scene when the ship sailed home to Norfolk after its maiden deployment – participating in the naval blockade during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Godfrey was one of two “plank owners” – Navy parlance for an original member of a ship’s crew – who joined the historic ship this week on the final leg of its final voyage.

The Enterprise will be inactivated during a ceremony on Dec. 1 before being tugged to Newport News, where it will be gutted at the shipyard that built it a half-century ago.

“This is an honor that I can’t begin to describe,” said Godfrey, who was invited aboard by the captain. “This ship means so much to me. This is where I learned what it means to be a man.”

On the pier, members of the last crew the ship will ever know weren’t thinking about the historic significance. Like every ship homecoming, they were focused on running into the arms of spouses and kissing sons and daughters they’d be meeting for the first time.

The time for reflection will come later, said Petty Officer 3rd Class Mustafa Joseph, before leaving the ship to greet his mother.

“It is a big deal,” he said. “This ship is historic; it’s where I started my Navy career. Right now, I’m just excited to see my family again.”

After weeks of marking sentimental moments aboard the ship – the final stop at a foreign port; the final nighttime landing; the final catapult off the flight deck – the marking of “lasts” seemed to wear on some crew members.

When asked for a recommendation on whether to eat the pizza served in the ship’s wardroom the night before docking in Norfolk, a SH-60 Seahawk pilot smiled wide. “You have to try it,” he said. “It’s historic; the ship’s last pizza!”

Although some poked fun, the level of interest in claiming a keepsake from arguably the Navy’s most famous ship is serious business.

Before the ship deployed in March, sailors dumped boxes full of old lunch trays into a trash container at the pier. A week later, a few entrepreneurial dumpster-divers were calling the trays “collectors items” and selling them for $65 a pop on eBay.

In the ship’s final days, many people drank coffee from plastic Pepsi cups after sailors and family members aboard the ship pilfered mugs stamped with the ship’s name and crest.

On the flight deck Saturday, sailors in green shirts used a circular saw to chop up the arresting cable that caught the last jet to ever touch down on the deck. Dozens lined up to grab foot-long sections of the greasy, steel wire.

Capt. Bill Hamilton, the ship’s commanding officer and the pilot who made that final landing, joked that he needed the ship’s security forces to focus on protecting the ship’s soon-to-be-historic compenents, many of which are bound for museums.

Hamilton, whose young grandson joined him onboard and occupied his chair on the bridge as the ship steamed into port, said he takes great pride in being the last man to lead the Enterprise. He choked up before taking the stage at his final all-hands meeting in the ship’s hangar bay, where he thanked the crew for working so hard to keep the old ship from falling apart.

“When I say Enterprise, I’m not talking about the chunk of steel,” Hamilton said. “I’m talking about the crew. I’m talking about the sailors and Marines that keep this ship running.”

Back in 1961, Bill Falls worked in the ship’s laundry department, a thankless but vital task then, as it is now. It was by chance that he became one of only two original crew members to ride the ship home.

The 74-year-old Hampton resident was drinking at the Elks Lodge a couple years back when he noticed a young sailor drop a few quarters into a jukebox and play an old country song by George Jones.

“I couldn’t understand why a guy so young would listen to George Jones, because he’s ancient,” Falls said.

The two got to talking, and after a number of beers, they realized they both had served on the Enterprise.

The young sailor, Petty Officer 2nd Class Wade Bauer, asked the old timer if he wanted to join him on the ship’s last tiger cruise.

“This is something I never realized would happen,” Falls said, reflecting on his short tour aboard the ship. “At the time, I didn’t think I had anything to do with history.”

In the coming months, sailors will begin pulling equipment and furniture off the carrier as a private contractor begins dismantling it.

The ship’s engines fired for the last time Sunday; jets loaded with bombs and supplies will never again launch off its sprawling flight deck. “It’s really over,” Bauer said.

As hundreds of sailors and Marines flipped off lights Saturday night and lay down on mattresses bound for recycling facilities, the voice of the ship’s chaplain, Cmdr. John Owen, crackled over the ship’s speakers for a final prayer.

Owen said he wondered exactly what the ship chaplain said in the first evening prayer 51 years earlier. “I don’t know,” he said.

“But I am confident of this: were he to be with us tonight, as Enterprise prepares to return to port for the last time, completing her service to the Navy and the nation that commissioned her, he would acknowledge that his prayers have indeed been answered.”

Mike Hixenbaugh, 757-446-2949, [email protected]

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Equation said:

A lucky few aircraft carriers might get to become Chinese hotels and theme parks, like the Minsk and Kiev.

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Many of us are hoping, that when the time comes, the USS Enterprise, CVN-65 (1960-2013) will also be made into a museum, and we think, as the first nuclear powered aircraft carrier, we have a good chance at accomplishing it.

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Q. Can the ship be turned into a museum?

A. The inactivation and defueling process will have major impacts on the structure of the ship. It is not cost-effective to return the ship to a condition that would support it becoming a museum. Additionally, the cost to maintain a ship as a museum is generally cost prohibitive.

As the ship is inactivated, equipment that may be of historic interest will be reclaimed and passed on to museums or appropriate Navy commands so ENTERPRISE’s many contributions to the nation’s defense over the past half-century are remembered.

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Despite requests from a group of veterans who wanted to make the famed carrier Enterprise a museum, prohibitively high costs will make that impossible, Military.com reported.

Because it is nuclear-powered, large sections of the ship will be removed after its decommissioning, scheduled for Dec. 1, to take out the nuclear reactors. Replacing those sections and implementing a new power system on the ship would be too expensive, likely costing tens of millions of dollars, Rear Adm. Thomas Moore, the Navy’s program executive officer for carriers, told the website.

Some artifacts, like the last flag flown over the ship, plaques and photos of the ship, will be saved and likely donated to museums for public viewing according to Naval History and Heritage Command policies.

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"Following the inactivation period, it will be towed over to Newport News -- to Huntington Ingalls Newport News Shipbuilding -- where it will be defueled. They'll remove all the fuel from it."

The fuel will be shipped to Idaho for temporary storage, Maus said. "Sometime at a later date, it will be disposed of."

While in Newport News, some of the Enterprise's equipment will be removed then the next phase begins.

The carrier, minus planes, ammunition and a propulsion system, heads to Puget Sound, the long way.

"It will be towed around (Cape) Horn to Puget Sound, Washington," Maus said.

The Enterprise, like America's other nuclear carriers, is too big to fit through the Panama Canal, so it must round the southern-most point of South America to get to Washington State.

"It'll be a very lengthy tow," he said.

Once it reaches the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, the long and difficult task of removing the eight reactors from the Enterprise's hold begins.

"In order to remove the reactors, it takes a lot of cutting and hacking on the ship to do that," Maus said. "They do cut through the flight deck and they may very well be cutting through the hull of the ship itself."

Once the reactors are removed, CVN-65 will be formally decommissioned.

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Yep.. what can you do? The USN is not in the ship museum business. The ship will be unsafe once the nuclear cores are removed.

I just hope CVN-80 shall be named Enterprise.

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The Navy's Ship Donation Program has served the interests of both the Navy and the public since its inception in 1948, providing a tangible reminder of the U.S. Navy's role in American history. Through the authority of Title 10, U.S. Code Section 7306, selected naval vessels which have been determined to be historically significant are available for donation to a non-profit organization or to a State, Commonwealth, or possession of the U.S. or any municipal corporation or political subdivision thereof. As required by 10 U.S.C. 7306, donation of naval vessels must be at no cost to the U.S. Government. The Navy's policy restricts the use of naval vessel donations for the purpose of public display as a museum or memorial. Upon execution of a donation transfer, the Donee assumes title to the vessel and all ownership costs of restoration, preservation, maintenance, operation as a static ship museum/memorial for public display, periodic dry-docking, and ultimately ship disposal.
Objectives

Promote public interest in the defense of the nation,
Commemorate naval history and heritage, and
Safeguard the preservation of donated ships for future generations.

What We Do

The Navy is responsible for designating vessels to be placed on or removed from donation hold status. As the Navy's agent, PMS 333 advertises the availability of historically significant inactive ships placed on donation hold, works with potential donees to determine interest and viability of ship museum projects, provides guidance regarding donation application requirements, evaluates the applications submitted to the Navy for ship donation, and makes recommendations regarding the applications evaluated.

Once a ship is placed on donation hold status, PMS 333 publicly announces the ship's availability for donation via a notice in the Federal Register. The Navy's minimum requirements for ship donation and other ship donation application information is available by clicking on "Ship Donation Application Info" on the right side of this web page. The ship donation application process is a three-phase process. Phase I Letters of Intent and Executive Summaries are due within sixty (60) days of a Federal Register notice. Phase II applications consisting of the Business/Financial Plan and Environmental Plan are due within one (1) year of the Navy's acceptance of an applicant's Phase I Letter of Intent. Phase III applications consisting of Towing, Mooring, Maintenance, and Curatorial/Museum Management Plans are due within six (6) months of the Navy's acceptance of an applicant's Phase II application. Once an applicant meets the Navy's minimum requirements for donation, a recommendation for award is made to the Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Research, Development and Acquisition. If two or more applicants are vying for a ship, the Navy will choose the best applicant from among them that meets the minimum requirements. Transfers are made "as is, where is."

Vessels which have been on donation hold from more than two (2) years are subject to being removed from donation hold and redesignated for disposal unless the applicant is making measurable positive progress toward meeting the Navy's minimum requirements for donation. Beyond two years, donation holds can only be extended on a year-to-year basis and are subject to formal review at the Navy's annual Ship Disposition Review conference.

Because title and ownership of the vessel is accepted by the Donee, the Navy is no longer the owner of donated ships. The statutory requirement of 10 U.S.C. 7306 that donated vessels be maintained in a condition satisfactory to the Secretary of the Navy pertains to the use of the vessel in a manner that does not disrespect the veterans that served on these ships or the proud traditions and heritage of the U.S. Navy. Donation transfer contracts between the Donee and the Navy also require the Donee to obtain the Navy's consent to further transfer the vessel or to disposal of the vessel at the end of its useful life as a museum/memorial. This is necessary because demilitarization of warships by complete destruction, usually by dismantling, is postponed when the vessel is donated for museum/memorial use. The Navy's consent is required to ensure that the Donee properly demilitarizes the ship at the end of its useful life as a museum/memorial.
Accomplishments

The Navy's Ship Donation Program has donated 48 vessels to serve as museums and memorials across the country to qualified non-profit organizations and States. The battleship Texas (BB 35) was the first ship to be donated in 1948 to the State of Texas. The battleship Iowa (BB 61) was the most recent donation in April 2012 to the Pacific Battleship Center in Los Angeles, CA. One donation contract was defaulted in 1980 when the submarine Roncador (IXSS 301) was repossessed due to the Donee's inability to comply with the terms of the Donation Contract and the vessel was subsequently scrapped. In 2011, the Navy approved the Donee's request to dismantle the minehunter Vosseller (MSB 5).

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bd popeye said:

Not going to happen Jeff. After the Big E is gutted of her nuke core which will leave a gaping hole about 300 feet long and about 75 feet wide from the hangar deck down to the 6th deck she just won't be safe. One report states there will holes cut in the flight deck.

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