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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
FCS was a boondoggle. It was basically designed to fight small wars with air transported vehicles.
That was the point. It was the late 1990s early new millennium. No one imagined a great power competition. FCS was the U.S. Army reorganizing and modernizing to a rapid reaction force for peacekeeping and to counter situations like Yugoslavia.
You can see how well that works by looking at how the Russian VDV has fared in recent conflicts. They did fine with the CSTO mission in Kazakhstan. But their vehicle movement operations in Ukraine were a huge failure. To transport vehicles you need a huge cargo plane and a long airstrip to land in. If the airstrip is not available, or there are active opposing air defenses, then you cannot air transfer vehicles.
VDV doctrine is not what FCS was intended to do. Also comparing VDV vehicles to FCS Manned vehicles is farcical. They don’t perform the same mission and much of the failure of the Russians has been the failure to even live by their own doctrine and training. Shifting VDV onto missions that it wasn’t designed for.

Under the plans for the FCS modernization the US Army airborne and Paratroopers would have remained as they are today. Light infantry either rotary wing mobile or dropped by parachute. The elements that they would have gotten from FCS would have been land warrior, Command and control, light tanks and UAS. Alongside this would have been the RAH66 Comanche which was only cancelled later.
FCS units would have replaced the Stryker BCTs. The Stryker was the “Interim Armored Vehicle” family as the aim was to spiral new technologies into the mechanized infantry units. The Strykers replaced very thin skinned M113, Humvees and light trucks. Though Stryker has had its issues and has been complained of. Its survival is far better than a Hummer.
FCS manned vehicles would have taken this to the next level by offering IFV and MBT level firepower in combination with Modernization of artillery and mortar. As well as supporting UGVs. FCS vehicles like the XM1206 ICV would have added 30mm cannons, organic UAS scouting, Hard kill APS systems and many capabilities that are still Next generation today at a 20 ton weight. Things that the VDV can only dream of. To deploy them them the Army hoped to keep them and the Stryker at about 20 tons and use C130J30s however they also in visioned a replacement for the C130 in the form of the Quad tilt rotor.

The Armored Corps of the U.S. Army would have adopted a number of FCS vehicles but the heart would have remained heavier vehicles like the Abrams. However they envisioned forking FCS systems like the XM360 120mm gun from the XM1202 into the Abrams in a modernization similar to the Abrams X.
Against China and Russia, which are the pacing challenges for the US right now, such feeble lightweight vehicles are also kind of pointless.
Remember the era. Russia wasn’t a challenge. It was barely a player. At best the era’s war planers were hoping Russia could be an ally at worst they viewed Russian as a potential failed state. A bigger Yugoslav war in the brewing. Something still possible.
China wasn’t pacing it was on the map but other than numbers of soldier at that point in the late 90s early 00s it was nothing like it is today.
The US needs to develop next generation anti-tank weapons to replace the Javelin and the TOW missiles.
Javelin is still fairly new and modernization is continuing particularly as the older units are being shipped to Ukraine.
TOW missiles used today are not the ones that came off the line in the 1960s today the launcher is just reused well new missiles plug in kinda like the VLS system, MLRS launcher or PAC launcher. Currently programming is looking at its next replacement the Close Combat Missile System-Heavy. Both XM30 programs have considered replacement options for the TOW launcher
And yes the M2 needs a higher caliber main gun.
The XM30 is again looking far bigger. However for the near term as we have seen T90s getting a taste of the M242 and not liking it. The system is still valid. The 25mm is adequate for its main goal of supporting infantry.
I have nothing against the transmission and engine upgrades they did.
The improvements they did are nothing compared to what is next. With the US Army interests In hybridization.
But the changes to the turret in M2A4E1 are just pointless. A vast increase in cost for little extra capability. We saw how well Israeli APS worked in city fighting in Gaza.
Did we? Because a number of the vehicles lost in fact the majority don’t have Trophy or Iron fist. Of those that do the attacks seem to have been in areas not covered or the vehicles were abandoned. This by the way is a higher survival rate than the Russian or Ukrainian armored vehicles that both lack a hard kill APS.
And if you abandon the APS what then? Because you are still susceptible to attack by ATGM.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
VDV doctrine is not what FCS was intended to do. Also comparing VDV vehicles to FCS Manned vehicles is farcical. They don’t perform the same mission and much of the failure of the Russians has been the failure to even live by their own doctrine and training.
Is it? It is just that the Russo-Ukrainian conflict started without the VDV having finished its modernization. The VDV was supposed to have the BMD-4M IFV, BTR-MDM APC, Sprut tank destroyer, 2S42 Lotos 120mm mortar. A family of air transportable vehicles based on a common chassis.

Shifting VDV onto missions that it wasn’t designed for.
I think I said this before. But it happens all the time in major conflicts. Special forces being pushed into use as shock infantry.
You saw it happen all the time in WW2 for example.

FCS units would have replaced the Stryker BCTs. The Stryker was the “Interim Armored Vehicle” family as the aim was to spiral new technologies into the mechanized infantry units. The Strykers replaced very thin skinned M113, Humvees and light trucks. Though Stryker has had its issues and has been complained of. Its survival is far better than a Hummer.
The Stryker is ok. It is just not a replacement for tracked vehicles. Trying to make it into an anti-tank platform and other such nonsense was the issue.

FCS manned vehicles would have taken this to the next level by offering IFV and MBT level firepower in combination with Modernization of artillery and mortar. As well as supporting UGVs. FCS vehicles like the XM1206 ICV would have added 30mm cannons, organic UAS scouting, Hard kill APS systems and many capabilities that are still Next generation today at a 20 ton weight.
The Russians already use 30mm autocannon. They are even going to start putting 57mm autocannon into use.

Things that the VDV can only dream of. To deploy them them the Army hoped to keep them and the Stryker at about 20 tons and use C130J30s however they also in visioned a replacement for the C130 in the form of the Quad tilt rotor.
The Russians also have a lot of planned equipment that is in neither production nor use.

The Armored Corps of the U.S. Army would have adopted a number of FCS vehicles but the heart would have remained heavier vehicles like the Abrams. However they envisioned forking FCS systems like the XM360 120mm gun from the XM1202 into the Abrams in a modernization similar to the Abrams X.
And why would you put a low weight gun into an Abrams? You would just increase price, lower reliability, and probably gain no useful ability. Oh right this is the US MIC we are talking about.

Javelin is still fairly new and modernization is continuing particularly as the older units are being shipped to Ukraine.
It is obsolete. It uses cryogenically cooled sensors. The latest French ATGMs don't need those. And they can get target data from third parties via wireless link.

The XM30 is again looking far bigger. However for the near term as we have seen T90s getting a taste of the M242 and not liking it. The system is still valid. The 25mm is adequate for its main goal of supporting infantry.
It is ok against lightly armored vehicles. You cannot expect to use it against a tank (it was never meant to be used for that). The thing is it is out ranged by Russian autocannon.

a number of the vehicles lost in fact the majority don’t have Trophy or Iron fist. Of those that do the attacks seem to have been in areas not covered or the vehicles were abandoned. This by the way is a higher survival rate than the Russian or Ukrainian armored vehicles that both lack a hard kill APS.
The irregulars in Gaza are using kitchen made ATGMs. They don't even have access to large numbers of drones. If they did it would have been a true bloodbath.

And if you abandon the APS what then? Because you are still susceptible to attack by ATGM.
I do not think anyone has a good solution yet. The Russians use hard ERA. But it is kind of useless against drones.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Is it? It is just that the Russo-Ukrainian conflict started without the VDV having finished its modernization. The VDV was supposed to have the BMD-4M IFV, BTR-MDM APC, Sprut tank destroyer, 2S42 Lotos 120mm mortar. A family of air transportable vehicles based on a common chassis.
Yes it is. As how the Russian vehicles are armed equipped. The way they are employed the way they are supported or was supposed to be is completely different. As well as the protection levels. The VDV were also supposed to be air dropped as opposed to air deployed.
I think I said this before. But it happens all the time in major conflicts. Special forces being pushed into use as shock infantry.
You saw it happen all the time in WW2 for example.
Yes but in the case of the VDV it was taken to the 11. They were used as a regular armored unit when they are anything but. It basically was a case where as the most professional arm of the Russian Ground Forces they were pushed to be something they were not.
The Stryker is ok. It is just not a replacement for tracked vehicles. Trying to make it into an anti-tank platform and other such nonsense was the issue.
Except all the mission types for Stryker are found in analogs that have been successfully done with similar vehicles including anti tank. The main issue was implementation, immaturity. Those took time. The MGS’s problem was it was trying to use a turret and ammunition system that was still at prototype level.
The Russians already use 30mm autocannon. They are even going to start putting 57mm autocannon into use.
At the time the Russians most state of the art vehicles were BMP3. 57mm did not factor yet. Soviet 30x165mm is a weaker round that 30x173mm nato and again missing the point I was making about where and what the FCS was trying to do.
The more modern adopt of the 57mm seems to have stalled as has most of the current modernization programs. What’s the point of trying to cram a 57mm on a BMP3 if it can barely hold the ammunition it already has without turning into a funeral pyre? If it is barely able to be used by its crew and doesn’t have its supporting infantry? And where are they? The US has the luxury of time here because Bradley isn’t bad and modernizing is on schedule. The Russian 57mm doesn’t seem to have happened as the Russian military is digging up coldwar relics to back fill its losses.
The Russians also have a lot of planned equipment that is in neither production nor use.
You were the one whom commented, I was simply sorting your comments.
Yes FCS was cancelled also with just about everything of the modernization programs of the era. That’s what happens when you have to shift priorities.
And why would you put a low weight gun into an Abrams? You would just increase price, lower reliability, and probably gain no useful ability. Oh right this is the US MIC we are talking about.
Weight Reduction. Remember Abrams is heavy. Second the gun was designed to be as reliable if not more so that the current one by more modern construction. It was meant to perform at or above the modern gun. And as to cost remember it would have been in production for the XM1202 so basically end production of the M256 for the XM360. Again the same gun is back on the Abrams X.
But oh yes because a 1970s era soviet tank is still modern in 2024.
It is obsolete. It uses cryogenically cooled sensors. The latest French ATGMs don't need those. And they can get target data from third parties via wireless link.
Javelin was built in three parts. The portions you are talking about is the CLU. has a new lighter CLU that’s been in the works for a few years it’s even entering service with export customers. It can even launch Stingers. The missiles are also getting an overhaul. With similar capabilities. Again much of what has been deployed and discussed from battlefield pickup is old.
It is ok against lightly armored vehicles. You cannot expect to use it against a tank (it was never meant to be used for that). The thing is it is out ranged by Russian autocannon.
And yet we have seen it blind T90M and then destroy it. Recently the Tow on a Bradley blew a T80 at a mile. We saw it in the Gulf wreck T72 and BMP2 and BMP1 to. It’s not supposed to face off against a tank but that doesn’t mean it can’t.
The irregulars in Gaza are using kitchen made ATGMs. They don't even have access to large numbers of drones. If they did it would have been a true bloodbath.
Bogus. The existing APS have limits… and Kitchen made Atgms? Really give me a break. They are using the same drones as Russian and Ukrainian infantry. The same Chinese made hobby drones and Iranian weapons that are now arming Russian
I do not think anyone has a good solution yet. The Russians use hard ERA. But it is kind of useless against drones.
No the Russians have been using cope cages against top attack and now turtle tanks. CUAS is developing at the vehicle level with newer generations of APS like Trophy and Ironfist. It’s just not been implemented yet.

Again you responded to my comment. I responded to yours. Frankly a lot of Whataboutisum. Or trying to shoe horn things that happen 18 years later into a process that was happening in the space of about 10’years from 1996 to 2006.
 

SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
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Why the hell does this cost around 100K a pop?

I was thinking the exact same thing! Granted, I think production for this lot is like ~100 drones, so that probably doesn't help matters. It does seem to have some very high end features as well, but still... 100k for a drone is wild. I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine has shown that just modifying commercial drones is probably the best path for 99% of scenarios, though you could argue that Rogue 1 is made for that 1% edge case (shrugs).
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I was thinking the exact same thing! Granted, I think production for this lot is like ~100 drones, so that probably doesn't help matters. It does seem to have some very high end features as well, but still... 100k for a drone is wild. I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine has shown that just modifying commercial drones is probably the best path for 99% of scenarios, though you could argue that Rogue 1 is made for that 1% edge case (shrugs).

The point of suicide drones is to have decent features for bottom of the barrel prices. Whatever high end feature this has I doubt it justifies being twice the cost of a Shaheed, which could fly much farther and loiter much longer.
 

HighGround

Junior Member
Registered Member
I was thinking the exact same thing! Granted, I think production for this lot is like ~100 drones, so that probably doesn't help matters. It does seem to have some very high end features as well, but still... 100k for a drone is wild. I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine has shown that just modifying commercial drones is probably the best path for 99% of scenarios, though you could argue that Rogue 1 is made for that 1% edge case (shrugs).
Why don’t we just copy the Lancet and make it better… it’s obviously a very good and successful concept.
 
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