The Armoured Personnel Carrier APC / Infantry Fighting Vehicle IFV

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
There is a lot more debate in recent years with the Iraq War and the Afghan War (and this is on top of the years of heavy debate about this subject in past decades) about the performance of APC's and IFV's, what they should be designed to do, and how to achieve such performance, including what compromises must be made to result in the best possible vehicle.

The original purpose of the APC was to get infantry as close as possible to their objectives while providing them with protection against small arms fire and mortar and artillery fragments. Lightly armoured half-tracks were used on both sides in WWII, and these provided light protection for an infantry squad/section while allowing it to use its weapons from inside the vehicle (in addition to the machine guns already mounted on the vehicle itself) to put suppressive fires on the enemy positions until the squad/section could dismount as close as possible to its objective. After the Normandy Landings in 1944, the half-track was found to be inadequately protected against German anti-tank weapons, so tank chassis were temporarily used to carry infantry into battle. None of the converted infantry-carrying tanks were lost, and the infantry suffered no losses while mounted either. However, the converted tank hulls carried no machine-guns, and no further development using tank chasis and hulls for APC occurred.

Since then, most APCs have been tracked to give them good mobility and have mounted machine-guns while carrying a squad/section as close as possible to their objectives. Other than providing overhead protection (which the WWII half-tracks did not), the APC is a relatively modest improvement over the half-track. In the last generation, the IFV has increasingly replaced the APC, usually with increased armour and firepower (typically light cannon, and sometime ATGM as well), but usually they can carry less than a full squad/section of 8-13 infantry. The original idea behind the IFV was that when the infantry did have to dismount, the smaller 6 or 7 man squad/section would constitute the assault element while the IFV itself would replace the support element (machine guns, etc.) of the squad/section.

This has not worked out well in practice for a few reasons. Firstly, the IFV is not always able to stay in contact (being in contact does not necessarily mean having to be in close company with the infantry, mind you) with its infantry, either due to the terrain or due to heavy enemy fire; thus the IFV may find itself necessarily separated from its infantry either because it can't get close enough to the objective to put suppressive fires on it, or out of self-preservation it must fight its own battle against enemy anti-tank weapons, etc. This deprives the infantry of its necessary base of fire.

Secondly, neither the IFV nor APC possess sufficient protection and mobility (contrary to official statements) to accompany tanks without unnecessarily risking either their own survival, or the infantry in the back of the vehicle. Even with applique and other advanced armours, IFVs cannot hope to survive hits by many anti-tank weapons; in Normandy, this problem was dealt with by converting tank hulls to APCs, and this was found to have worked. Additionally, due to their lighter weight (which is often used as an argument for greater mobility, but this has both pros and cons) IFVs cannot move as quickly or as easily over difficult ground as tanks can. The greater weight of the tanks actually (and counter-intuitively) "seats" them better, giving them not only better traction but most of all reduces the "bumps" that vehicles experience when travelling cross-country, thus reducing not only the fatugue of theose inside, but especially greatly reduces the number and potential of injuries to those inside.

A smoother ride afforded by a much heavier vehicle isn't just a luxury, it's a tactical necessity. Otherwise, IFVs either have to drive at break-necks speeds to keep up with the tanks (and despite what official literature says, IFVs have a hard time doing this) thus wearing out and injuring the infantry in back (bashed heads, impacted spines, weapons and kit bouncing around, people too) or the tanks are forced to slow down (or leave the IFVs behind - not a good idea to separate armour and infantry).

Thirdly, and this goes back in part to the first point, is the heavier armament carried by IFVs than APCs. At first, this sounds good, but when one remembers that doing so takes up a lot more internal space inside the vehicle (as a cannon requires a turret basket or "cage" with the commander and gunner seated inside along with all the ammo, fire control equipment, etc., thus taking up space that otherwise could be used for 3-4 more infantry and their kit).

The light cannon that most IFV have cannot penetrate the frontal armour of most newer generations MBTs, though they may be able to penetrate the turret ring (as the 25mm on a LAV-25 id on an Iraqi T-55 in 1991, et al) as well as the rear and possibly side armour. But getting the opportunity to do so is rare (and very risky). Any MBT needless to say, can destroy any IFV from any angle.

The only practical defence IFVs have against MBTs are ATGMs, but usually the IFV has to stop to aim and fire, and then remain in situ to guide the missile to its target, exposing it to enemy fire. The tank can fire on the move, and fire-and-forget and get itself out of the way; the IFV cannot.

To add to this, wheeled APCs/IFVs have become very popular lately, and their advocates assert their ease of maintenance and much reduced logistical needs compared to tracked vehicles, their lighter weight (and apparent ease of deployability), not to mention that their overall lighter weight compared to tracked IFVs (but still only equal to that of tracked APCs) allows them to travel over softer ground in some cases, not to mention travel much faster and farther on roads, and without need for tank transporters to avoid wear-and-tear (and breakdown).

But wheeled APCs/IFVs are not without their problems. As mentioned, they are not lighter than many tracked APCs, and tracked vehicles can still move cross-country better than wheeled vehicles under most conditions. Wheeled vehicles suffer from greater hull and suspension stress than tracked vehicles, leadin to their partial replacement in places like Afghanistan by tracked APCs asthe wheeled APCs hulls crack after sustained off-road use. And of course, light weight affects the well-being of the troops in back, as not only do wheeled APCs do not carry as much protection as tracked IFVs, but the troops in back are much more subject to being knocked about inside the vehicle as they travel cross-country. I still remember travelling in the back of a LAV-25, and although it is a great improvement comfort-wise over the original LAV, we were still being thrown around inside when the LAV reached higher speed, and it was quite a struggle (and tiring) to hang on to our weapons and kit while we were being bounced around all over the place.

There are a lot of things to be considered, and compromises to be carefully weighed when deciding on the form of an Infantry fighting Vehicle.

1. The role of an IFV must be to get its infantry as close as practically possible to their objective (in offensive operations) or to get them to or from their positions as quickly as possible (defensive operations). This requires that the IFV have protection similar to or approaching that of an MBT. It also requires that the infantry, if possible, be able to have roof panels that open up (ideally in much the same manner as tank hatches do, with an ability to open up part-way to provide overhead cover against small arms and fragments while the infantry fight from inside the vehicle on their way to the objective). A turret-mounted weapon on such an IFV may, or may not, interfere with this, both from the revolving turret itself as it traverses and from the guns/missiles it carries and the blast effects and gases released from their firing).

2. The IFV must carry a full-sized infantry squad/section, not a reduced one, so that the infantry can still perform fire-and-movement if the IFV for whatever reason is unable to provide fire support.

3. The IFV must be heavy enough to be able to cross country and obstacles at the same rate as MBTs, so that the IFVs do not lack too far behind or the tanks are forced to slow down to let the IFVs catch up, or risk separating armour and infantry with potentially devastating results in the event of contact with the enemy (no need to do part of the enemy's work for him).

4. The IFV's weaponry (and associated ammo and fire control equipment, etc.) must be a secondary consideration compared to the need for getting a full-sized infantry squad/section to and from battle with the same or nearly the same protection as an MBT while being able to keep up with the tanks cross-country without unecessarily battering and injuring the infantry inside. As such, cannon, whether light automatic or heavier close-support howitzers may not necessarily be the best way to go on an IFV, especially given two considerations: 1. Neither weapon can reasonably be expected to penetrate the frontal armour of an MBT or even an IFV with MBT-approximate level protection, let alone at the range at which a tank main gun can; and 2. The turret cage, ammunition stowage, fire control equipment, power systems, tools, etc,. for these weapons will necessarily take up a lot of space, and as such priotity for space must be given to the needs of a full infantry squad/section first, then other considerations, such the armament secondarily. Given that many IFVs use ATGMs to counter tanks, this space available for armament will be very limited indeed.

5. The IFV must (obviously) have sufficient armament. The IFV normally operates 100 metres or so behind the tanks (as the tanks engage enemy tanks and heavy anti-tank weapons with their main guns) in offensive operations, and will normally remain behind dug-in infantry positions during defensive operations. It must have a rapid-rate, direct-fire capability against any target short of a tank (or any vehicle with MBT-approximate protection), and if possible, a fire-and-forget ATGM to deal with tanks and heavy anti-tank weapons that get past friendly tanks and heavy anti-tank weapons, as well as enemy light armour, field fortifications, and even helicopters, etc.

For the first, the IFV requires at least a Heavy Machine Gun, possibly an automatic cannon, but the latter takes up a great deal of space, and as it cannot take out newer generation enemy MBTs (an ATGM is require dto do so), the range and firepower advantages over an HMG are in considerable part nulliied, especially when the additional space for it reduces the amount of space for infantry. The ATGM, as mentioned, is necessary to deal with anything the HMG can't, but the ATGM must be fire-and-forget so that the IFV does not have to remain exposed after firing to guide the missile to its target. Space for the HMG and the ATGM launcher and the ammo for each, along with fire control equipment will be reduced if a surveillance and fire control system along the lines of the UK version of the US Javelin ATGM are used instead of the systems used for M-2 Bradley and the like, etc. In fact, in some ways it may even be a bit of an improvement. Smoke grenade launchers are a given on an armoured vehicle, for obvious reasons.

The HMG ideally would be mounted inside a small turret allowing the Commander (or Gunner, if a 3-man crew is necessary) to fire and reload the gun inside (if the HMG is gas-operated, and not recoil-operated, modifications to the HMG will be necessary to prevent gas fumes from entering the turret). A hatch in the roof of the hull would be best for reloading the ATGM launcher (somewhat as M-2 Bradley also uses, although a Javelin or Spike-type missile would be much lighter than a TOW!). A minumum of 1,000 rounds of HMG ammo would be necessary (preferably much, much more, along with 2 or 3 spare barrels, etc.), but probably no more than a dozen ATGMs (of Javelin or Spike size, not TOW, HOT, etc. size,) could be carried onboard (including those already loaded in the launcher) or even be necessary (after all the tanks and the heavy-anti-tank weapons are the principle anti-armour weapons, not the IFV). This is also important to remember when considering that the maximum range of fire-and-forget ATGM in the class of Javelin and Spike is 2,500 m. Heavier weapons with greater range are available, but they are not fire-and-forget (with maybe one or two exceptions) and these are the very weapons that are best employed by heavy-anti-tank units.

Two additional considerations for the main armament of the IFV. First, if possible the HMG should be fully stabilized in both axes for accurate fire on the move and at helicopters, and the ATGM ideally should be able to be fired on the move; these are important, especially in offensive operations. Second, the HMG and the ATGM should be able to be removed and mounted on tripods for anti-armour work from dug-in position during defensive operations. The HMG and ATGM are partially wasted in their usage during defensive operations when they remain on the IFV. They are much more effective when firing into the enemy flanks from dug-in positions. The HMGs would efficiently despatch the enemy light armour while the ATGMs would engage the tanks. The idea here is that, unless the enemy acheives a decisive break-through (in which case the HMGs and ATGMs must be quickly re-mounted on the IFVs), the infantry should fix the attacking enemy forces while the armour with their tanks deliver a counter-attack to destroy the attacking enemy force.

This is by no means an exhaustive analysis of the requirements for an IFV. Arguably, however, it can give one some idea of the tactical issues and practical difficulties involved in conceptualizing a proper Infantry Fighting Vehicle.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
A good diagram (meant to be a joke) that explains the issues:
index.jpg


Anyways, the latest breed of ATGM's (U.S. FGM-148 Javelin and the Israeli Gill/Spike LR) are fire and forget weapons. However, Spike has longer range variants that can reach out to 8km, and Javelin is not capable of being mounted on vehicles in it's current form as it cannot take the shock of being vehicle mounted.
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Ah, the Armoured Corps strikes, seeking to leave The Infantry in its dust! Well...;))[Norfolk prepares a nice, extra-dry, shaken, not stirred, Molotov Cocktail {with a twist of HEAT!} for the Tankers...:nono:].

Yes, it does seem that Mechanized/Armoured Infantry is almost a case of chasing one's tail at times, but I am optimistic that someday someone just might get the message (aside from the Israeli Army, which clearly has already gotten it). You're quite right that Spike has longer-range versions, but these rely upon fibre-optic guidance beyond 2,500 m, so fire-and-forget is not possible beyond that range with Spike. I was rather hoping for an ER-version of Javelin to appear, but if as you point out that it's too delicate for vehicle mounting, then it's rather pointless. Perhaps a 40mm or even 57mm Bofors would be in order then...well, maybe that's going a little too far.

Still, it would be a good thing to have some manner of fire-and-forget ATGM on an IFV, assuming of course that it can be vehicle mounted. I suspect the HMG is still a more practical weapon than a cannon of 20-40mm, provided of course, that a reliable ATGM is mounted along with the HMG. Otherwise, it would be necessary to dispense with both, and go for a light automatic cannon and a co-ax MMG with no ATGM due to the lack of space caused by having a turret basket for the cannon and fire control equipment etc.

While I admire the firepower of light cannons, I don't think that they are sufficiently effective (given that they can't take out MBTs except from the rear or maybe the side, and good luck getting there, if you live) compared to HMGs (and especially the FN BRG-15 15.5mm, very nice kit, with dual-feed [one for SLAP, the other for Ball, and you can switch between the two at well, the flick of a switch, so to speak]. An HMG (with an ATGM launcher) can still do the job nicely, carry plenty of ammo, and not take up too much space from the infantry. The greater firepower of auto cannons, while certainly nice, is not otherwise justified, as anything requiring the use of something other than the HMG can be dealt with by the ATGM, I suspect.

I see the new Merkava Mk.1 MBTconversion to the Nammer HAPC mounts an HMG and an MMG, no cannons while carrying a squad of 8 men. Israeli Army says it will re-equip 2 Brigades with Nammer and replace M-113.
 

sumdud

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Would this be by any chance the Ideal APC/IFV thread?

I don't believe in tank based- IFVs/APCs, at least not without a MAJOR modification. Tanks(most) have rear engines, so troops have to exit either(except Azhmarit) through the top (and get shot) or the side (and fall flat on your face with no chance of returning back on running, and you also get shot at without counterfire).

I have a question, however. Why would a tank converted IFV/APC be slower than the tank itself? You are keeping the same engine, aren't you?

Would it be feasible for have 2 IFVs assigned to 1 squad, half a squad in each vehicle?
Only turret that I can think of would fit your scenario and be small enough is that of the Terrex's, but you will still need to modify and expand it.
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
The IFVs should have front-mounted engines (and I would also argue the same for MBTs a la Merkava/TAM.) As for IFVs that were converted from MBTs, being slower than the original MBTs, I don't think that I made that claim. What I said was that existing IFVs (not MBT-conversions) don't have the combination of weight (strange as it may sound) and engine power to keep up with MBTs cross-country (at least not without either forcing the tanks to slow down, or forcing the IFVs to speed up such that they batter their infantry occupants around in back).

As for a turret, yes, that is some feat to (ideally) provide one for such an IFV, and it might well prove necessary to fit a fully-enclosing gun shield instead, especially if the HMG and any ATGM launcher are to be dismounted during defensive operations.

As for splitting a squad between two IFVs, well, think of the sheer number of heavy tracked vehicles you would have to purchase, crew, supply, maintain, and manoeuvre if that was done. It just isn't practical, and where that has been done, the size of the infantry platoon has been reduced (usually by chopping an entire squad from the platoon, not to mention having small squads to begin with) in order to keep to around 4 APCs or IFVs per rifle platoon, as much more than that is far too unwieldly.

One IFV carrying a full-size squad is necessary, and trying to get around that in one way or the other is self-defeating; either you end up with far too many vehicles to support and control, or too few infantry to do the job. Better to just bite the bullet and do what it takes to get the infantry to where they need to go, and junk the fuzzy peacetime-thinking that leads to the kind of Mech Infantry doctrine that we've been stuck with for the last generation or so.
 

sumdud

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Well, unless you are at the center of a world war, you don't need a giant army, just one that is highly mechanised and mobile. Tanks aren't exactly mobile in the long sense. For moderate size countries, I think mechanized infantry is still useful.

As for the idea of dismounting your machine gun(and ATGM) on dismount, you leave your vehicle (which is now definitely an APC) a loose mouse at a cat's mercy. It would make sense to leave some sort of weapons in the hands of the vehicle commander and/or driver. And .50 MGs(that's what I am thinking) in generally aren't very mobile for infantry either.

Are the combat systems of an auto cannon turret in the turret or with the commander elsewhere in the cabin? If the former, would the latter be possible? a HMG isn't great at hitting aircraft
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
In defensive operation, the 50-cal HMG was dismounted from an APC and dug in with a tripod to fire into the flanks of enemy armour (Ma Deuce is very good at taking out most targets short of an MBT) and a Carl Gustav accompanied it nearby. Between the 50-cal and the Carl G, enemy armour was accorded a very warm reception after having passed through arty, then TOW's, then more arty, and then tank guns and more arty.

The APCs were kept in a hide close enough to the infantry's positions for the HMG and the Carl G to be easily and quickly dismounted, kept supplied, and re-mounted when the order came to withdraw if the enemy acheived a decisive break- through. The APCs were well-hidden in their hides, yet easy to get to. It was a system that worked, and worked well, with 50-cals and Carl G's paired together and dug-in. Enemy tanks and IFV/APC would roll into a buzz-saw, and any that got through would be taken out by the armoured counter-attack. As for the tracks being vulnerable in their hides, well, the armoured reserve was lurking back around there, waiting for launch its counterattack or to assume a blocking role until a new counter-attack could be readied.

The reason for dismounting the heavy weapons from and APC or from the proposed IFV is that 1. you get better fields of fire for HMGs and medium AAW/ATGMs from dug-in-positions sited to the flank on the prepared Kill Zone, and 2. better protection, especially as the track doesn't have to expose itself at all to take a shot, since its heavy weapons are already dug-in and under cover. This was standard practice for most Western Armies until the arrival of APCs and IFVs with 20-40mm autocannon, which are simply too heavy to dismount (if that were even possible from their turrets) and their ammo too heavy to carry around. That said, before TOW Under-Armour, TOWs and their launchers used to be dismounted from the tracks as well, for much the same reasons.

With the current IFV's, you lose these advantages in defensive ops, and the auto-cannons and optically-tracked and guided ATGM mounted in the turrets only take up space that would otherwise be occupied by infantry, reducing your offensive power. Again, a 40mm cannon is a nice piece of kit, but if an HMG can take out most anything short of an MBT, and for that you need ATGM, then the 40mm is just a waste, as it can't reasonably expect to take out an MBT either. And as for ATGM like TOW, etc., the IFV has to expose itself not only to shoot, but to guide the missile to its target. Tanks are great snap-shots, and they'll take out many IFVs that open fire on them before the IFVs can even get a hit (and contrary to official statements, tanks can shoot with great accuracy out to ranges a lot longer than is generally publicly admitted -the 3,750 m range of TOW is of little comfort in use against a Western tank with a 105 mm or 120 mm gun).

Bear in mind that most Western ATGMs were originally designed for use against Soviet MBTs that, for all the brute power of the guns they carried, weren't accurate much beyond a mile or so. The majority of armour and mechanized engagements occurr around 1,400-1,600m anyway, in part due to terrain and visibility conditions.

IFVs have very high profiles, much higher than most MBTs, because the turrets their cannons are fixed in are already sitting on top of raised hulls (to accomodate the infantry), and finding good firing positions for such high and obvious targets is tough (that's why even MBT which are twice the weight of IFV are so much shorter, so they can find good firing positions without exposing themselves any more than necessary).

As for the cannon and its fire-control equipment, that's inside the turret with the Commander and the Gunner. There are remote weapons stations, however, being offered that allow the crew to sit in the hull, but may prevent them from reloading or clearing jams/misfires without having to expose themselves to enemy fire.

HMGs are of limited use against choppers when on a normal (as opposed to AA) tripod or an unstabilized vehicle pintle. But if stabilized (in both axes), they become very effective AA weapons out to 1000 m to perhaps double that, depending on the type of HMG and ammo used (look at all the Apaches that have been taken down by Soviet 12.7 and 14.5mm HMG in Iraq, even though AH-64 is supposedly armoured against 12.7mm AP and 23mm HEI).
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
So far as an "ideal IFV" would look like to my eyes, it would have a turret-mounted 105 mm rifle with coax MMG, and would fire mainly HESH, but also carry Smoke, some Canister and HE, a handful of gun-launched ATGM, and maybe a few Sabot (just in case). The ammo would be stored in a turret bustle. An HMG would be mounted on the top of the turret.

Unfortunately, I seriously doubt that such a vehicle would leave enough space inside for more than a handful or so infantry (except for VERY short rides). And the turret would reduce or outright eliminate the ability of the infantry to fight effectively from insider tyhe vehicle, which requires roof doors (not firing ports in the hull, even if roof-mounted periscopes are available). In order to effectively fight from inside an IFV (or APC), infantry have to stnad up and look out over the top of the hull roof, observe the enemy positions, aim, and fire, etc., prior to reaching their assault position. Needless to say, a turret gets in the way of this, in a BIG way.

Additionally, the hull roof hatches must be able to be firmly locked in the "Mortar-Shell Position", that is, locked partially open just far enough for the man inside to have a good view all around him, but with the hatch still more or less directly over his head, (just like the hatches on tank turrets) in order to provide overhead cover for the infantry fighting from inside the IFV. Many APCs and some IFVs have roof hatches that open right up to allow the infantry to stand up and fight from inside the vehicle, but the roof hatches fold outwards and lay flat on top of the hull, thus providing no overhead cover whatsoever. Turrets prevent even this, let alone roof hatches that open the opposite way and can be locked in the Mortar Shell Position.

Well, so much for the "ideal" IFV (or even APC). I still strongly suspect that in order to get a full squad or section of infantry to and from their objective on the battlefield, and with protection and mobility more or less equal to that of an MBT, the IFV will probably have to forego heavier, turret-mounted weapons like auto-cannons and even light guns and heavy, wire-or-laser-guided ATGMs. I perceive that they would probably have to settle for HMGs in wrap-around gun-shields and (if possible) fire-and-forget medium ATGM with Passive IR Surveillance and Fire Control Systems (with both HMG and medium ATGM able to be dismounted and dug-in during defensive operations, thus vastly increasing both the firepower and the surveillance capabilities of the defending infantry - after all, each infantry platoon would have at its disposal 4 HMGs and 4 medium ATGMs - with Passive IR Surveillance Systems - a stunning defensive capability for a mere rifle platoon).
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
HMGs are of limited use against choppers when on a normal (as opposed to AA) tripod or an unstabilized vehicle pintle. But if stabilized (in both axes), they become very effective AA weapons out to 1000 m to perhaps double that, depending on the type of HMG and ammo used (look at all the Apaches that have been taken down by Soviet 12.7 and 14.5mm HMG in Iraq, even though AH-64 is supposedly armoured against 12.7mm AP and 23mm HEI).

The AH-64 is not covered in armour; certain areas of the AH-64 have armour, others don't. I believe it is only the cockpit that is protected against 23mm rounds.
 

Scratch

Captain
I think a vehicle with something bigger than a 40mm cannon would loose it's ability to be an IFV due to space and weight restraints. Armament probably won't increase much.
What I can think of is perhaps a fire support version of an IFV (lackig proper wording). Like the M3 is compared to the M2. This support vehicle could perhaps accompany the IFVs and be armd with 40-50mm cannons, coax. 7.62mm MG, independently targeted cal.50MG and/or ATGMs. Depending on the mission maybe laser guided Hydra rockets. Much of the "crew space" could be used for ammo.
 
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