Sino Ottoman relations?

Hi,

this is a question that came up in a history seminar today:

Does anyone know something about the relationship between the ottoman Empire and the Ming or Quing dynasties?

Since both were "encroached upon" by European colonials, it would have made some sense to come to an understanding, on the otherhand, I do know that they had proxie clashes in central asia over the muslim areas.

Mightypeon said:

Hi,

this is a question that came up in a history seminar today:

Does anyone know something about the relationship between the ottoman Empire and the Ming or Quing dynasties?

Since both were "encroached upon" by European colonials, it would have made some sense to come to an understanding, on the otherhand, I do know that they had proxie clashes in central asia over the muslim areas.

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I'm not sure. But there must been some animosity between China and Turkey because in the last few weeks there have been very large demonstrations in Turkey against China. All this over the recent riots in China.

bd popeye said:

I'm not sure. But there must been some animosity between China and Turkey because in the last few weeks there have been very large demonstrations in Turkey against China. All this over the recent riots in China.

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The recent demonstrations are part of the more recent development of "Pan-Turkism." They are not based on ancient animosities, if anything China would be pissed at Turkey for centuries of raids by Turkic peoples.

So I take it, there is no historical animosity such as China with some of her SE Asian neighbours.?

bladerunner said:

So I take it, there is no historical animosity such as China with some of her SE Asian neighbours.?

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Of course there are, they share borders. Turkey does not.

It seems that all the fuss that Turkey made in regard to the riots in Xinjiang is not without harm to China's interest. Although there are a few unremarkable small protests in other countries - mostly by the Uygurs themselves, the biggest one seem to have come from Turkey. Now that it has caught the attention of a certain extremist group, Chinese workers in northern Afrikan countries are now at greater risk and are forced to take extra precaution.

I wonder how this would affect the relations between China and Turkey. Turkey should not have reacted the way it did and should have exercise more caution in the face of the very first unsubstantiated media reports.

Maybe the Turkish government is trying to get some attention? Or better yet since they have been ostracized by other Islamic countries/groups in the past, they might be trying to look tough now? Who knows, the point is while it is damaging to China, it is more damaging to themselves.

Spike said:

Of course there are, they share borders. Turkey does not.

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What I meant was, "Is there any historical grievances between China and Turkey?"

The Turks Should remember that "People in Glasshouses should"nt throw stones"

They'e have had incidences with the Armenians, where some EU countries and the U.S. want to label the historical Turkish actions as genocide, and the also have trouble with some Kurds and the P.K.K. in Northern Iraq

bladerunner said:

What I meant was, "Is there any historical grievances between China and Turkey?"

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To answer your question, I just spent some time reading up on this actually. Here's what I found:

China does have a grievance dating back to Ottoman/Qing times when the Turks made a half-hearted effort to subvert Chinese authority in Xinjiang. During Yakub Beg's decade-long conquest of Kashgar and its environs, he solicited political and military support from the Ottomans, who agreed to send him weapons, 3000 rifles and some old (actually unusable) cannons, along with a few military officers to train his troops. The Ottomans also granted him the title of emir which theoretically made them overlords of Yakub Beg and Kashgaria. However, everyone knew the Ottomans were too far away to be of actual help, both were actually hoping the British would get involved as a hedge against Russia. In the end, Yakub Beg's army was put down by Chinese forces under the Qing general Zuo Zongtang. Official Ottoman involvement then ceased, although some indirect Turkish influence remained.

After the fall of the Qing, weak Republican Chinese control of the region allowed Turkish influence to increase to a degree. Turkish trained teachers arrived and began setting up schools and teaching a modern Turkish curriculum in Turkish to the Uyghurs. Ironically, this clashed with the conservative clergy and feelings of Uyghur identity and caused some problems. In any case, Turkish influence again receded when the Ottoman Empire fell after WWI.

More recent developments include the fact that Communist China and Turkey were opposing combatants in the Korean War. Turkey also became the base of many Uyghur operations to subvert Chinese control in Xinjiang. On the other hand, China also supported Turkish rivals such as Syria, which annoyed Turkey. Sino-Turkic relations often followed the course of Sino-American relations, they improved after the 1970's with the thaw between China and the United States.

EDIT: Also remember that Turkey delayed the Varyag from passing through the Bosphorus.