Richard the Lionheart vs Yue Fei

Let's have some fun!

Richard the Lionheart, Yue Fei, and their respective armies are magically transported to a far away land that looks like this:



Richard thinks that he is facing an army of heretics intent on destroying Christendom, Yue Fei believes that his emperor had been abducted by these foreign mercenaries. The two armies appear 10 miles apart, with scouts on each side quickly discovering the opposing force.

Both armies number around 5000 men, all combatants. Each army is composed of approximately 1000 elite soldiers and 4000 regular soldiers. Logistics is not a factor.

What do you think would be each army's ideal composition, and which side do you think would come out victorious?

Since both men are great strategists, tacticians and diplomats... I mean Richard almost managed to marry off his sister to Saladin's brother for a peace treaty. Yufei had no horsemen as the song lost the plains but they did have very effective artillery

I don't know, given how much is unclear about Yufei and how much is documented about Richard, i am more inclined towards Richard.

I think, the army composition will be as follows:
Richard:
1000 knights on horse back
3500 longbowmen
500 pike

Yufei:
1000 (250 pieces) cannoneers and traction catapults with high explosive shells
2000 cross bowmen
2000 anti carvery heavy infantry (zhanmadao and axemen)

Lezt said:

Since both men are great strategists, tacticians and diplomats... I mean Richard almost managed to marry off his sister to Saladin's brother for a peace treaty. Yufei had no horsemen as the song lost the plains but they did have very effective artillery

I don't know, given how much is unclear about Yufei and how much is documented about Richard, i am more inclined towards Richard.

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Actually, Yue Fei had plenty of cavalry. In the , the Jurchen had 15,000 cavalry and 100,000 infantry. Yue Fei countered with 15,000 of his own cavalry:

When Wu Shu moved southwards, he split his army into four divisions that used different routes, Yue Fei's army meanwhile was stationed at Yancheng. On August 21, 1140 (the 8th day of the seventh month in that year of the Chinese calendar), Wu Shu launched a surprise attack, heading a force of 15,000 horsemen and 100,000 infantry. Yue Fei ordered his Beiwei (背嵬) and Youyi (游奕) cavalry units to attack the Jurchen.

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During the battle, the Song cavalry employed the

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(拐子马/拐子馬) tactic. They were to be followed by infantry who were to engage the Jurchen in hand-to-hand combat, break the enemy formation and then retreat once darkness fell. After the battle Yue Fei left for the Imperial court where he presented a memorial to the emperor saying: "On the 8th day of this month whilst out scouting, I saw four evil foreign princes, their mighty warriors and Wanyan Zongxian (完顏宗賢) (also known as King Getian 蓋天大王). General

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led 15,000 of our troops on horseback all dressed in shining armor. They seized the road 20 Li (6.6 miles) to the north of Yancheng where our cavalry engaged the enemy in the early evening when officers and men hacked and chopped at the foes with maza swords (麻扎刀), griffes (提刀) and large hatchets. In ten bitter battles, countless enemies were slaughtered, their bodies littering the ground. As twilight fell we withdrew, stealing two hundred horses as we went. I would like to report a great victory and now await further orders from your majesty."

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I can't find an authoritative source right now, but during its peak, Yue Fei's personal army (岳家军) numbered 100,000, a quarter of which was cavalry.

I think, the army composition will be as follows:
Richard:
1000 knights on horse back
3500 longbowmen
500 pike

Yufei:
1000 (250 pieces) cannoneers and traction catapults with high explosive shells
2000 cross bowmen
2000 anti carvery heavy infantry (zhanmadao and axemen)

Click to expand...

I can see a problem with Richard's composition here: he doesn't have any light cavalry! Without light cavalry, his flanks would be extremely vulnerable. As I mentioned previously, Yue Fei does have cavalry (he would not have been able to beat the Jurchen otherwise), and he could send in his own heavy cavalry to engage Richard's knights, while his light cavalry would circle around and attack the archers and pikemen from their exposed flanks.

I think, European horse breeds are heavier than their Asian counterparts; and with the emphasis on lances vs slashing weapons would likely steam roll the latter in a direct charge. The Franks and later Richard will consistently break Saladin's battlelines with their charges. Given how much heavier european armor was and that Song armor was like that of the Arabs; I would expect Richard's calvary to perform the same vs a Song battle line.

Agincourt shows what longbowmen are made of, it is not the power of the bow, but the range and number of missiles in the air. Within 400 yards of the bowmen, he can release around 8-10 well aimed arrows a minute. Its not that chinese bows can't reach this range - most are smaller bows, it is just the rate of fire; and that the nomads that china fought did not require bows with great range. Agincourt, had around 5000 longbowmen and they shot around 700 arrows a second combined. French heavy armor was penetrated at around 50 yards; anything over that killed the horses, lightly armored infantry. Agincourt was also a very similar makeup to the army I have proposed, there was around 5000 long bowmen with around 1000 dismounted knights and mens-at-arms. The bowmen can shoot to either side, thus flanking is not that big of a concern.

Now, on Yuifei's side, the cannons and traction catapult with explosive shells should be the game changer. Artillery and massive crossbow / hand cannon formations had made the song battlefield between Chinese to be trench warfare as artillery and rifles did to WW1.

Those who crosses the no man's land will be cut to pieces.

Can Yufei's soldiers prone behind their trenches with their cross bows, be able to withstand the hail of arrows by long bowmen who have to fight standing up? Can the high explosive shells disperse the longbowmen formation? Can Richard's knights reach the Chinese lines in one piece to steam roll them? how would a zhanmadao perform against an armored horse with a knight wearing plate ontop of mail?

Lezt said:

how would a zhanmadao perform against an armored horse with a knight wearing plate ontop of mail?

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Just a quick note on this, plate armor wasn't used until the late 13th century, fully 100 years after Richard's time. Even then, it did not reach the full plate that we think of until well into the 15th century.

@solar, you are right; they didn't yet wear plate for another 100 years.

According to this article, the English Longbow did not come into wide adoption until the 1300's. In the Battle of Arsuf, Richard's infantry were mainly armed with spears and crossbows.

Lezt said:

Since both men are great strategists, tacticians and diplomats... I mean Richard almost managed to marry off his sister to Saladin's brother for a peace treaty. Yufei had no horsemen as the song lost the plains but they did have very effective artillery

I don't know, given how much is unclear about Yufei and how much is documented about Richard, i am more inclined towards Richard.

I think, the army composition will be as follows:
Richard:
1000 knights on horse back
3500 longbowmen
500 pike

Yufei:
1000 (250 pieces) cannoneers and traction catapults with high explosive shells
2000 cross bowmen
2000 anti carvery heavy infantry (zhanmadao and axemen)

Click to expand...

Cannons as we know it (gunpowder powered ones) didn't exist until the late 13th century.

Lezt said:

Can Yufei's soldiers prone behind their trenches with their cross bows, be able to withstand the hail of arrows by long bowmen who have to fight standing up? Can the high explosive shells disperse the longbowmen formation? Can Richard's knights reach the Chinese lines in one piece to steam roll them? how would a zhanmadao perform against an armored horse with a knight wearing plate ontop of mail?

Click to expand...

Medieval knights didn't adopt plate armor until the 14th Century and full suit of armor as we know it didn't exist until the early 15th Century. Knights during King Richard the First's time wore chain mail (possibly with a brigandine "jacket" underneath). Here is an example:



It certainly provides more protection for the chest area against conventional scale/chain mail.

Here's a pretty informative thread I found:



Very interesting read.